My last post on Asian/White couples seemed to offend a few people, so in a bid to understand why, I am issuing a challenge to any readers of this blog, not because I really believe my position is infallible, but because I do want to genuinely know if the offence I have caused is justified. If you can fulfill any of the following, I will issue a public apology for what I wrote on this blog:Pull a quote from that post and copy it into my comment section below on this post and explain how it shows any of the following accusations leveled against me - all of which can be found in the comments section of my last post - are accurate:
a) That the post was a direct response to TheKoreans article on the subject in America, and that I talked with authority about the situation in America. Please bear in mind that I wrote this:
"This post will not be a direct response as such because I do not live and have never lived in America and I don't know what it is like there, but some of the things I bring up here will at least have some relevance to the subject."
"My expertise is with Korea, so I am going to look at the question from the point of view of living in Korea."
b) That I wrote that Asian men are not attractive to women. And I will make this one even easier for you; you don't need to find anything that says I thought all Asian men are unattractive to women, just some.
c) That I personally think White men are more attractive than Asian men.
d) That I think ALL Korean women prefer White men. And again I will make this easy for you, find the part where I said more Korean women prefer White men over Korean men.
e) That I do not think that unjustified racism, stereotyping, Western media favouritism to caucasians, etc, plays a significant role in the issue. You will have to explain away the following quotes from the post:
On TheKorean's conclusion: "deep-seated racism and cultural stereotyping which consciously and unconsciously affects people's choices. Actually, I agree that this could be a considerable factor"
"Let me first acknowledge, however, that it probably is true that society puts the white man on top of the social status pyramid and because status is a major influence on a woman's taste in a man, this is of course a big element to the whole thing"
"With this in mind then there is most probably an effect on the mind of Asian women by society, stereotypes and racism even when it comes to Asian men, I am certainly not denying it."
"So while a form of racism and stereotyping exists that harms an Asian man's chances of bagging a White Western woman, this is certainly not the whole story"
f) That I spoke for mixed race couples and silenced them in the process. I never suggested I knew anything more than a few POSSIBLE problems for a mixed Asian man and Western woman couples that were perhaps not faced by a White man Asian woman couples, like my wife and I. I never spoke for anyone else and admitted the existence many exceptions. Another quote to prove this:
"This seems a little bit more of a problematic relationship and despite the fact there are many success stories, here are some of the problems I foresee for such couples, which are not insurmountable, but definitely make things more difficult"
I am not sure how this involves silencing their views, as was claimed in my comments section. Also see this link on the disparity of divorce rates in Asian/White relationships, from which I pull this quote:
"White wife/Asian husband couples are 59% more likely to divorce by the 10th year of marriage than White wife/White husband couples, whereas Asian wife/White husband couples show only 4% greater likelihood of divorce than White wife/White husband couples over the same period.[9] Social enterprise research by the Columbia Business School (2005–2007) concluded that while East Asian women statistically prefer East Asian men for marriage, they show no discrimination against White men, causing Asian women/White men pairings to consistently become the prevalent form of interracial dating & marriage in the United States.[6]"
g) Point to where I implied White women couldn't possibly be interested in Asian men.
h) Point to where I implied that it was strange for a White woman to be interested in an Asian man.
i) Point to where I wrote all women don't like short men or that all women like big/tall men.
j) Point to where I wrote Asian men were less "manly". I merely wrote that they TEND to be not as big, and again not all of them (this is a fact).
k) Point to where I implied my wife's discussion with her Japanese friend on the subject was the opinion of all Asian women.
l) Point to where I said all Asian women were smaller, slimmer, or more feminine than White women. I said "arguably" they tend to be, which may be wrong, but I am entitled to my opinion.
As you can see there are a number of accusations I feel are completely unjustified and that I simply didn't write. Some of them are so laughably misconstrued as to make me wonder what they were actually reading and makes me think that this was an important subject to write about.
In attempt to educate me, Roboseyo posted a number of links which included 4 posts (start here) from the blog "I'm no Picasso" on the effect stereotypes and racism have on Western women with Korean men in Korea, especially relevant to when they are in a Western crowd of people. I read them all (obviously not quickly enough for the blogger in question), but I already knew what they were going to say and I knew that I would agree whole-heartedly.
If she or Roboseyo think I don't understand the general ignorance, prejudice, and unbelievable stupidity of many Westerners when it comes to their behaviour around an Asian/White couple, they are severely wrong because boy did I receive enough of it in England when I lived there with my wife, which I have written about several times on this blog. And this leads me to my last challenge, and by far the most important one, because even if I did believe what I am accused to believe in (which I don't, let's just clarify that again) they would make me nothing more than a little ignorant perhaps, but not a monster nor especially immoral. This is what really matters:
m) Point to the part of the post where I wrote that we should discriminate against couples we meet, treat them differently at all, or judge them upon anything other than their own individual character. Point to where I said we should ridicule their choices or assume anything about their relationship.
Just because I believe that patterns of behaviour and appearance do exist in different populations of people, and this can have some explanatory power sometimes, I would never say that means we can judge individuals on this. This is a distinction worth noting. Upon seeing any couple, whether they are inter-racial or not, I would advocate assuming nothing more than they like each other and treating them like any other couple you happen to lay your eyes on or interact with. Why would I condone anything else, considering I myself am in an inter-racial relationship and my wife and I have been the victim of people's prejudices?
It is worth restating the aim of my post and that was to say that the issue of why there are more Asian women with White men than White women with Asian men is more complicated than mere prejudice (and Western prejudice at that, which appears to be the sole explanation for all matters inter-racial these days) and the language I used in the post clearly points to a speculative approach, considering all the possibilities. It was never intended to be a direct response to the situation in America, just a perspective from Korea, as I explicitly stated.
It appears as if merely exploring other possibilities, and denying prejudice is the sole cause, is offensive in itself. The ironic thing is that my post may have exposed a different kind of stereotype, a new one, where relations between races can only be explained by Western culture's prejudices, which is then taboo to criticise (I believe this is a very popular line of thought at the moment). And once again, I think much of it can be, but not everything and I think one has the responsibility to point this out and most of all be honest and have an open mind to other explanations until they are proven to be wrong.
If you see everything as a sign of prejudice, how can you be without prejudice yourself?
And Finally
As speculative as my post was a regular commenter on my blog pointed out in my comments section that there is indeed quite a lot of compelling evidence for many of my speculations. I thank him for his intellectual rigour in the search for truth and teaching me a lesson in searching for more supporting evidence, even when I am just throwing out ideas. I am linking a couple of his sources, that he used in his excellent explanation below (please see my comment section on my last post for his full comment):
http://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsReports/5744_THUMB_IPAD.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States#Asian_and_White
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2012/06/26/who-do-you-love-korean-ethnocentrism-international-couples-and-the-dating-dilemma/
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/02/17/james-taranto-takes-on-hypergamy/
And just to show , once more, that I do believe stereotypes and media representation of races is a key factor, here is a little nugget to show that too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erotic_capital#Race
here, foremost:
ReplyDelete"I am married into a Korean family ..."
so what.
i've met a lot of guys like you who throw this out first. it doesn't matter, but you think it does and want everyone to think it does, but it doesn't.
this attitude distorts your worldview, how you perceive yourself, your marriage, and quite possibly your wife.
this attitude allows you to pen your previous post and then be unable to see the faults in it. and then to post this one where you ask your detractors to point out specifically how you are wrong.
i read your last and this one and TK's. his is better. yours ... i felt like i was reading the words of someone who's not lived here very long and not been married very long. it just struck me as immature on a lot of levels. then i got to the bottom and found the "About Me".
your regular commenter who brought the compelling evidence and intellectual rigour also wrote:
"Personally, I don't support interracial marriage or breeding, but my disdain for misinformation and opinion-based debates are far greater."
yeah, misinformation sucks and all, but wow holy cow, the first part of that sentence is supremely f-ed up.
You have committed more than a few argument fallacies here I'm afraid.
Delete1. As someone blogging about Korea, wouldn't it be a little strange if I didn't say I was married into a Korean family? Throwing out my opinion about an issue related to Korea and inter-racial relationships like garbage simply because I am married to a Korean is, to say the least, a bizarre argument.
In my profile, I make no claims to greater knowledge because of my marriage, I am merely giving my point of view from this perspective.
2. Like some of the other commenters on the previous post, you have simply attacked, shown outrage and then left me none the wiser as to what you disagreed with.
3. "Guys like me" is also a little strange, do you know me well enough to judge me? Perhaps if you said this, it might sound better:
"I have known guys like you who throw this out first, it doesn't matter, but they probably think it does and want everyone to think it does, but it doesn't"
In writing the way you did, you are the prime example of someone who judges and treats individuals based on generalisations of others who share the same characteristics. Something I warned against in the post. I quote:
"Just because I believe that patterns of behaviour and appearance do exist in different populations of people, and this can have some explanatory power sometimes, I would never say that means we can judge individuals on this. This is a distinction worth noting. Upon seeing any couple, whether they are inter-racial or not, I would advocate assuming nothing more than they like each other and treating them like any other couple you happen to lay your eyes on or interact with."
You were not wrong to use an observation of similar people's behaviour, but you were wrong to judge me personally by it.
4. Why is asking your detractors specifically why you are wrong such a bad thing?
5. I disagreed with what he wrote at the end, and wrote to him saying so, but why would having a controversial (and in my view wrong) opinion on interracial marriage make him wrong on everything and take away from the logic of his other points. You should have attacked his specific arguments, not his credibility if you want to argue properly. I don't find what he wrote offensive, he is entitled to his opinion and as someone who is in an interracial marriage he has never once verbally abused me commenting on my blog. This suggests to me that he would not discriminate against or treat others badly based on this opinion.
Do you expect me to get outraged with him, like other people and yourself have with me? He has an opinion I disagree with, as far as I know he has never hurt anyone or caused any suffering to others at all. If I had learned he had done so, that would be a good reason to be angry.
Interesting original blog and I can partially understand your pov...however what about actually doing some (quantifiable?) research using a questionnaire or interviews or something with Korean-Western couples to support (or not!) your ideas...you might find your pov easier to defend that way, plus you could learn something about why Western women might marry Korean men...please don't misconstrue this as an attack, just a suggestion.
ReplyDeleteNo, you are dead right, such research would be a good thing to do and I admitted in this post that I should have used some more supporting evidence in the original. Yours is the kind of comment that is sensible and helpful criticism, so thanks.
DeleteI do stand by the fact that the original was simply about throwing ideas out there though, most of which were logically sound or based on the words of the Asian women I have met.
I really don't understand why you keep saying you're confused about what I was complaining about. I wrote a very simple sentence, and then repeated it once more: Please don't write about relationships you're not involved in, because you don't know anything about them, and we can write about them ourselves. That is very simple and direct -- it states the problem clearly, gives a clear and simple reason behind it, and a simple suggestion for how to fix the problem. Did I ever say I was "offended"? Or angry? Why is this so confusing for you? You don't get to speak about other people's real relationships, which are highly personal, and then get upset when they say you are wrong. You don't know better than I do, and you really have no reason to have ruminations on the subject, because it has nothing to do with you.
ReplyDeleteWhy is this so confusing for you? Why do I need to quote you for you to understand this? Why are you refusing to just accept that maybe you shouldn't speak on subjects you have no experience with? This doesn't need to be a long, drawn out thing. It's a simple case of you having spoken out of turn. Just let go of need to have the microphone on all subjects, including the ones you have no idea about. It's not that big of a deal. I don't discuss other people's relationships, because it's not my place. I don't even speak for other Western women dating Asian men. I speak for myself, about my relationship, without assuming that everyone else is like me, or that I need to make big summaries for what are ultimately a whole series of individual cases.
Which was TK's point to begin with. You don't know why any other person -- not one Asian woman, not one white man, not one Asian man or one white woman -- are with their partners. You know why you are with your partner, and you know why your partner is with you. That's it. That's all you know. The rest is just uneducated guessing. And it sets off alarm bells when people try to summarize, because all summarizing of this type is based in stereotype. All of it. And if you wouldn't want people stereotyping about your relationship (and I'm sure that you wouldn't), then don't do it to other people.
This is my last time repeating this to you. If you refuse to accept it this time, then you are on your own. I'm not interested in convincing you, or trying to control what you write, which is why I refuse to continue to argue. If writing this way is what you truly believe is right, then have at it. I just think it's a shame to sit and watch this happen and not at least try to point it out to people. So now I've pointed it out, three times. It's up to you what you do with it from here.
Here here- calm down. Someone who lists Kerouac and Hemmingway as their favorite writers should really be ashamed of themselves. Kerouac would spit in your face. Hemmingway would pour a bottle of rum over your head.
DeleteI think we know your type- the angry American woman who was not accepted- who did not have the guys look at her, and so off to Asia she came, where she was finally accepted- and now she has a big problem with those white guys who rejected her. Just calm down and understand two things:
1. You have really got some problems. Have you ever been in therapy?
2. You have a blog, and he has a blog. He has far more talent than you.
I think you had some really bad relationships in your past, and I feel sorry for those guys who put up with your strange and insecure behavior :(
I thank you for the defense, but I think that is a little too much. I disagree with her on this post and how she is trying to argue about it, but I know very little about her life apart from her opinions here and I am guessing you don't know that much about her either.
DeleteI really appreciate that you read and enjoy my writing, but I don't want this comments section to turn into people slagging each other off personally. But by all means be harsh on each other for our specific arguments, you can't really always be nice when disagreeing with someone.
anonymous, it is you are the one that need to chill buddy! it is one thing to point out why you disagree with someone, it's another to get down right personal and resort to below the belt blows.
Deletehonestly, by posting this type of comment, the only one come across negatively is you.
anyway, judging from you comment, I assume you are dude? maybe you should more respect for women?
What you have here Smudger, is exactly what INP was talking about. Your post encourages idiots like your first anon, and their pathetic pov. Your post read to me like the kind of thing that I would have read at Dave's.
DeleteAlso...Anonymous 1...it's "hear hear"....not "here here"...and everything after that was equally dimwitted.
Also...Smudger...you need to edit the idiots out of your comments section...rather than applaud their intellectual chops. i mean...a dude who says that he is "against interracial dating and breeding" is your most loyal Smudgefan? Hall of mirrors time Smudger.
Anyway, I did tell one of the Anon's that I didn't approve of insulting others. I never delete posts unless they are spam.
DeleteAs I said to another commenter I strongly disagree with what that commenter said about interracial marriage (why wouldn't I?). He is a regular commenter on my blog and and he is usually very civil and backs up what he write with a fair amount of research. I have challenged the commenter to justify that statement in a private message and I am currently in dialogue with him in argument. From what I have seen so far though, I have a feeling that comment is not quite as controversial as it first appeared. The rest of what he wrote in that comment was sensible fact-based logic, which no one has criticised. I am thinking about publishing our debate on this blog, but we'll see.
Think you are going to have to justify, "Your post encourages idiots" comment by answering my challenge. And you of all people can silence the people who think I am stubborn and never admit I am wrong. But really, I can't see why my post should be taken so badly or encourage idiots.
Just out of curiosity, why do you think that anytime somebody mentions Korean men dating Western women that they are specifically talking about your relationship? This is probably the third or fourth time that I've seen you jump onto a blog and explain to people what they should thinking or be writing on their own blogs in what could be considered (it is the internet after all) pretty defensive and harsh confrontational language. Do I agree with his post? No, I said so, and I pointed out why. I think that the discrepancy comes mostly from opportunity limitations (to summarize it in half a sentence). This topic clearly strikes a chord with you, but maybe the problem is less with Chris and more with how you are affected by this topic.
ReplyDeleteRight. I'll remember that argument the next time the Korean media sounds off about foreign men trying to seduce/rape/infect Korean women with AIDS. Why do you assume they're talking about YOU? Maybe you objecting to this kind of story has more to do with you than the Korean media. Stop telling the media what they can and cannot cover. Stop taking it so personally.
DeleteThe harsh language thing is a laugh. I've been very calm and very polite. I even said 'please'. I've not made accusations, name called or used swear words. You can keep claiming that I'm angry and ranting, but it's all right there in black and white. Mayve you thinking I'm being harsh says more about you than it does about me.
True, when I read what you write, possibly I'm putting a voice to it that might not be there. It's a definite possibility that I'm not discounting at all.
DeleteI don't assume that the Korean media talks about me. I am a unique snowflake blowing in the wind, and having never met anyone in the Korean media, thus I am sure that they aren't talking about me.
One of the more strange things I noticed was in your comments, the first paragraph says:
"Please don't write about relationships you're not involved in, because you don't know anything about them, and we can write about them ourselves."
However, final paragraph says:
"This is my last time repeating this to you. If you refuse to accept it this time, then you are on your own. I'm not interested in convincing you, or trying to control what you write, which is why I refuse to continue to argue."
I may be reading the intent or the tone wrong (if so, I guess that's on me), but it really seems as if you do want to control what he writes.
You may not object to those things being shown in the media, but it's a matter of public record that Chris does. And after all, what's good for the goose is good for the gander. No? If he doesn't like it when outsiders put intentions and stereotypes off on his relationship, then he shouldn't do it to other people.
DeleteIt was a request. If he chooses to ignore someone quite nicely asking him not to do or say certain things which affect other people and which propagate and continue certain stereotypes which have real life consequences for others, then that's his choice. How can I control what other people blog about? I don't run the blogging platform. I can't delete or modify his posts. That's why I find that argument annoying. If you choose to speak in public, you need to accept the fact that people may publicly object to some things you say. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult for grown adults to grasp. Did I accuse you of trying to control my comments because you disagreed with them? No. I answered your points with my own counterpoints. I disagree with people sounding off about other people's relationships when a. those relationships have nothing to do with them and b. they don't know what they're talking about. And I'm not going to stop saying that because people sulk about how they should have the right to say whatever they want, and freedom of speech, and stuff. Freedom of speech means I have the right to say someone is wrong when I think they are wrong, as well. If Chris doesn't want dissenting comments on his blog, he can either disable comments or delete the ones he doesn't like.
OK, I believe what you are getting at is this point:
Deletef)"That I spoke for mixed race couples and silenced them in the process. I never suggested I knew anything more than a few POSSIBLE problems for a mixed Asian man and Western woman couples that were perhaps not faced by a White man Asian woman couples, like my wife and I. I never spoke for anyone else and admitted the existence many exceptions."
If you can quote me and explain how I did what you are accusing me of, then I will apologise.
I also don't really get how why I wrote is comparable to what MBC said about foreigners and AIDS. It is also a difficult comparison to make because unless your Korean is really top-notch, you didn't really know how they reported it and what language they used, which is very important. To compare it to my writing, a careful reading of exactly was was written or said is required on both sides. Have you done this?
I suspect they said that didn't use the same writing style as I did. I suspect they didn't say something like this;
"it is suspected that a pattern is emerging of some foreigners coming to Korea giving women AIDS. This is not to say all foreigners are dangerous, just take the same precautions you would do with any man and do not judge individuals"
I suspect that the reason they were so wrong is they they advised women to be careful of ALL foreigners to guard against the possibility and the video I saw was also overly dramatic, pointing to real danger from foreign men. They also played pretty loose with the facts. For example in my post, it is undeniable that women TEND to favour taller/bigger men, it is a FACT. It is also undeniable that Asian men TEND to be not as tall/big as White men, this again is a FACT and on top of this I only speculated it could be one of many factors. It is also well documented that there are more potential problems with Asian man/White woman marriages/relationships based purely on logic. I thought this was pretty common knowledge and the source from wiki backs this up by noting that Asian man/White woman marriages are about 60% more likely to end within ten years in the US. Again I made sure that I did not say ALL in each case and said there were many exceptions.
If there really was a pattern that foreigners were coming to Korea and giving Korean women AIDS, it would need to be reported, but again without tarnishing all foreigners with the same brush and saying ALL. I never once claimed everyone met my descriptions. Again, all were merely speculative and were based on fact, logical inferences, and my experiences of talking with Koreans themselves. I never once spoke for you and I never once claimed to know exactly what it is like for an Asian man/White woman couple.
So no, it is not a matter of public record that I don't object to things like MBC's reporting of foreigners and AIDS. To have to evaluate each case separately, and as I have shown, they are not comparable. You are not tarnishing me with the same brush are you because of a loose connection to stereotypes? Wouldn't this be what you are accusing me of?
If you want to call what I wrote a list of stereotypes then fine, but you must realise that not all stereotypes carry the same weight. Some have some truth to them, some don't, and throwing them all in the same boat is very lazy and ill thought-out.
You are perfectly within your rights to be offended or to simply disagree, but what is wrong with asking you specifically why and to quote me on exactly what you object to?
Haha. I'm not playing this game with you anymore. You're now rallying up with PUA and his evolutionary science 'facts' which shows you don't even understand enough of the world, or social science, or science, to be having this conversation at all. I had a gut feeling from the beginning any sentence I spent time forming to send in your direction would be a complete waste of time, and I knew it for sure when you lied to Rob about reading the resources he sent for you, but you keep insisting that I need to explain it to you. So I did, in more detail, and you continue to choose to miss the point. You and I are finished talking now.
DeleteIf you can't quote me and explain how it is I really wrote what you accuse me of, just say so. I know what you accused me of, I just don't understand where you got it from. Can I make this any clearer for you.
DeleteI could easily say the same of you, that you are stubbornly holding on to your opinion and I am just wasting my time. That's not really a proper argument is it?
I always assumed that a request for someone not to do something was, in fact, an attempt to control that behavior.
ReplyDeleteHaha we will definitely have to disagree that a request equals an atempt to control. I think that's about the weirdest twisting of words I've ever heard. But more importantly, let me ask you this: do you agree with Chris's theories? I'm just curious if this is about you actually thinking he's right, versus following around the feminist blogger and scolding her for being shrill. I noticed you haven't taken issue with any of the other several people who have used much harsher language than I have to disagree with Chris's point (some even calling him a fool). I find it a bit interesting that the statement that started with 'please' was the one that you felt needed addressing.
ReplyDeleteI agree with some of it, and think that it is a little over stated in other parts. I wasn't really here to argue, just to suggest an alternate possibility that I had never seen mentioned in dialogs about why there are more Asian females that date western males rather than the other way around. Anyway, that really doesn't answer your question. What got me interested in your responses were the sheer number of words that you used to say very little. It was obvious that something had upset you, and I had seen you respond in a similar fashion on other blogs that I read. This time however, you seem to have a real problem pointing to exactly what was said that caused these 1000 word replies. Even after a simple request to copy and paste it, you still haven't done it. If I were to guess, I would say that you may have felt that something was implied that isn't actually in the post, and now that everyone has invested so much time in writing about it, it's hard to just step back now.
ReplyDeleteFinally, There is no agree to disagree on a request to stop being an attempt to change behavior. Just because an attempt is weak, or fails does not make it cease to be an attempt.
Finally, finally, sorry if you feel that I'm singling you out. It's just that the nature of your post was very interesting, and I didn't respond to the others, because I don't really have anything to say about them. They are either rehashes of things I've heard a thousand times, or I just wholly discount them.
... Are you sure you aren't mixing me up with Rob? My original reply was two sentences and the two others that came after were not more than a few, but Chrissy here kept begging me to explain more, explain more... so I did. The above are the longest comments I've left. You might want to review who you are responding to. Furthermore, I would leave one short comment, and Chris would respond with three or four several hundred word long responses in row, with no further input from me. So if sheer length and lack of actually saying anything is what you're after.... well.
DeleteAlso, I still don't understand what is difficult to understand about, "Please don't write about other people's relationships when you don't know anything about them." That's the opposite of not pointing directly at what I have an issue with. It's a one sentence, direct explanation of what I have an issue with. Of course, on the other side, you've decided that I've been *too* direct about what the issue is for me. How it can be both at once is beyond me.
You've moved the goal post now -- I didn't say making a request wasn't an attempt to change behavior. I said it wasn't an attempt to control another person. Those, also, are two different things.
I think I've about had it with the silly semantics games, now. Chris has had several people explain to him in several different ways in several different places why the post was an issue. People have wasted thousands and thousands of words on it, because he specifically has asked people to do so. Or "challenged" them. Yet, I think this comment from the other post basically sums up his position: "My own opinion is enough for me, and if you don't like it, you can take a number, get in line and kiss my ass."
He might have just said that from the beginning and saved everyone a lot of trouble, rather than pretending he was actively seeking input.
I think the point of that quote was to illustrate that an appeal to consensus is not a good argument. It does not mean that I will not ever change my mind, simply that I will only change my mind if a good argument is made. Saying that loads of people disagree with you, so you must be wrong, is not a good argument is it?
DeleteSorry, 503. 1000 was a bit of an overstatement. I didn't comment on post on the responses to Roboseyo's because honestly that was all boring, and your responses to the other posts were boring. This one wasn't. Unless I'm answering your questions directly about what I disagreed with in Christopher's original post, I'm talking only about this blog post. Sorry about the confusion. Request has a definition, and it's not semantics. You are doing exactly what you are saying that you are not doing. What really puzzles me, and had made this interesting for so long was that you couldn't see that. Honestly, I was hoping that you would give me something interesting to read or think about, but it looks like that's not going to happen. Have a nice one.
ReplyDeleteInteresting post. Would be great as an anthro study. I agree about the family duty factors and the in laws in Korea putting a huge strain on a relationship. However, I have seen enough Korean males who are rarely interested in Western women even when they are being approached in a very forthcoming manner which might also explain the data. However, overall socio economic factors as well as whether the person at hand was exposed to the West or not has to be considered vs a simple line of thinking. In general, natives who have never lived abroad who are eager to seek a Caucasian partner are seeking a way out of their situation and that is the same for both females and males although the number of males seeking that are rarer than women .
ReplyDeleteYeah, I would love to see it studied carefully and some good points you raised here, I agree.
DeleteWhat I find most hilarious is that Asian males getting upset at Asian women pairing with non Asian men is pretty similar to straight people thinking that gay people getting married is somehow ruining their own marraige.
ReplyDeleteWho cares if Asian women date white guys? There are plenty who don't or are open to dating an Asian man. Many of them are single. Go find one and get over yourself.
I have plenty of Asian male friends who are dating very attractive Asian women, and even a couple dating non Asian women. They all have one thing in common: they own their dating life, and don't make excuses and otherwise sit around bitching.
Good dating advice for men of any race.
Asians do have an advantage in IQ departnment though .
ReplyDeleteThere are scientists like Phil Rushton who wrote about racial differences in an IQ 's between races.couple of other scientists claim the same . Its basically nature vs nurture argument .
Check out wekepidia info on bell curve in races !!!
I think its pretty interesting.
Have a good one Chris ..cheers !!!
Yes, I heard about this study too. I think I heard Steven Pinker talking about it in an interview once as well.
DeleteI think I am right in saying that he even adjusted for wealth, social status, etc and found that Asians were kind of naturally the most intelligent, black people the lowest and Caucasians somewhere in the middle. Pretty controversial stuff that I think he got hammered for. Pinker made an excellent point though by saying that even if this were all found out to be absolutely true (that, on average, some races are more intelligent than others) it should make absolutely no difference whatsoever on how we treat each other. This is because we all know of people from different races that are smarter or less intelligent than the other, so you could never judge individuals based on the study. And even if it turned out all of one race were dumber than the others, again, why would this mean that you treat then differently or in any fashion that might cause them suffering (I believe this is one of the arguments moral vegetarians make for not killing animals for food, logic that I share with them).
You all should stop judging and putting labels on people. Who do you think you are to judge others? Only the GOD can do that!
DeleteGod, don't believe in it, sorry. Judging people is what everybody does every day, sometimes rightly and sometimes wrongly. If we didn't do it, we'd all be in a whole heap of trouble. The reasons behind the judgements is what is important.
DeleteDidn't you say that you don't dare to judge others in one of your postings? You should be ashamed of yourself and you shouldn't be teaching, especially young people. How sick are you?
DeleteDoesn't sound like me. Why should I be ashamed of myself, for writing an honest blog about my opinions about stuff? Don't like it, don't read it, simple. You seem to be an follower though, seeing as you know about my previous material. How sick am I? How sick are you to keep on reading, if you find what I write so objectionable?
DeleteThis is pretty laughable really, I'm sick, I'm not fit to teach children (and was it you that said on another comment that I shouldn't have children), yadda yadda yadda. What specifically have I wrote that is so wrong? Can you answer my challenge? Or am I just wasting my time with you?
But the problem is ,if you point out that on average there is heritable differences between individuals and races the PC crowd will accuse you of being racist and etc.
ReplyDeleteIts sad that people get so emotional on topic of human differences .I wish people would not label us who believe in average differences between races an racists or evil , but reality is its uneviatable .
Have a good day sir !!!
Yes, exactly. I seem to be quite experienced with being attacked for thinking such things. I don't think I have ever written or acted in a way that discriminates against individuals though based on this thinking, which is the important thing.
DeleteThanks.
And bytheway Eurasians (half white ,half Asians )get the best of both world.
ReplyDeleteDenniel Henney , Olivia Mun , Olivia Lufkin and others are pretty attractive and intelligent folks !!!
So I definitely support asian and non asian unions .
There is some evolutionary theory behind that. The combining of genes from two genetically diverse populations is often the best way to make the offspring genetically healthy. And beauty is often a sign of good genes. Just a theory but it makes good sense and backs up a Korean stereotype at least that those who are "blood mixed" are often attractive.
DeleteHopefully that will be true of my kid in the future.
Thanks for commenting.
Funny you should say this, because I had a big debate with a commenter on here (through PM) and he linked me to lots of research on this issue that I was completely unaware of. It seems that interracial children are indeed more likely to be unhealthy or have mental problems. So my theory above about genetic diversity hopefully making my child attractive is probably rubbish.
DeleteAnyway, my kid will be good-looking, it is inevitable when you look at my wife and especially me ;)
First, who are you disagreeing with? The last comment I made pretty much says what you say in the first half of your comment. I couldn't agree more that Asian/White relationships as well as many other mixed racial/mixed cultural relationships must run into more problems simply down to the world we live in. Not always though.
DeleteSecond, "The white male is a closet paedophile, or someone with little confidence dating his own race", goodness me, do I really need to debunk this BS? Perhaps some are like that, but you made a pretty broad statement there. How about this; I am not a closet paedo, neither had I that much trouble dating people of my own race. I just happened to spend some time in South Korea and met a girl who I fell in love with. My initial attraction to her might have had something to do with her race in her long black hair and dark eyes (something that I find attractive), maybe even the fact she was quite little and cute, however, I don't think that makes me a closet paedophile. So that is one person off that ridiculous statement.
I think this is to general. I know some mixed couples with not so attractive parents and (who wonders) the kids are also not attractive at all. But I guess they are healthy (their parents seem to be healthy, too). I wouldn't judge based on some remarkable examples.
ReplyDeleteBesides of this, my Korean wife confirmed most of your thoughts about Korean men not getting/wanting western women. Perhaps she was only reflecting about her elder brother and her family regarding this... But I think in the end it's only influencing statistics and doesn't mean anything (except chances) for individual cases.
When it comes to attractive kids, of course you can't judge, it was complete speculation about that stereotype based on some evolutionary biology theory. There is more than likely absolutely no substance to it at all.
DeleteI've spoken to quite a lot of Korean women about the subject of Korean men and White women (or my wife has spoken to them) and it is amazing how they have all tended to say what I said in the post. I'm not saying they are right, but their thoughts are at least worth pondering, so that is what I did.
If you look at the US census data, white American women marry Korean men more than any other Asian minority. Remember, there are hardly any Korean men in America.
ReplyDeleteHowever, there's alot more Korean women marrying American men, than Korean men marrying American women. This is because of extremely high female adoption of Korean babies. We're talking about an excess of 100,000 Korean women in America.
People make up narratives to suit their prior beliefs, but with minimal honest effort, you can figure out what the rest of the internet apparently can't.
All I was looking to speculate about was why there are more Asian Woman/White man couple than the other way round, with a perspective from Korea, not so much the US. However, you raise a great point about adoptions, certainly could be a big factor in the US and something TheKorean could add to his original article.
Deleteerracial dynamics.[9] White wife/Asian husband couples are 59% more likely to divorce by the 10th year of marriage than White wife/White husband couples, whereas Asian wife/White husband couples show only 4% greater likelihood of divorce than White wife/White husband couples over the same period
ReplyDeleteDO YOU KNOW WHY?
ASIAN WOMEN LIKE TO PRETEND EVERYTHING IS ALRIGHT, THEY CAN ACCCEPT CHEATING, AS LONG AS SHE GETS THE MONEY AND NOT THE MISTRESS
THE WHITE WOMAN DOESN'T WANT CHEATING IN THE MARRIAGE, SO IF THE ASIAN MALE CHEATS, SHE DIVORCES
ALSO, IN MANY OF THIS ASIAN WOMEN/WHITE MEN COUPLES , THE ASIAN WOMEN DOESN'T WORK SO THE WHITE MALE IS THE PROVIDER,
SHE'LL NEVER ASK FOR DIVORCE, SHE NEED HIS MONEY TO SURVIVE!!!
There is probably some truth to this. Of course not in all cases, so one should be careful not to generalise to all such couples, but there is some social/cultural theory here, which although controversial, would certainly be worth exploring. One should certainly be open to what you mention being one of many possible factors in the phenomenon of the disparity in divorce rates.
DeleteI'm an Korean guy born and raised in America all my life and I appreciate your blogs and articles. I hope you are doing well in South Korea! I am one of the people who don't find you (or your writings) offensive. You make interesting points. But I am curious what is your intention is with all this Asian male/Western women speculation?
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I do agree that you cannot generalize.
Are all women attracted to Asian males? No. Just as much as not all women are attracted to White men.
Are many women attracted to Asian men? Sure. Just like how many women are attracted to White men.
Are some women not attracted to Asian men? Probably. Just as much as how some women are not attracted to White men.
(P.S. statistics don't prove much in social complexes...so don't bother...this is to everybody. Just a tip.)
I think it all comes down to attitude..... not race, appearance, society, media or whatever. Admittedly, I do agree that many Asian (not just Korean) males are a bit more on the conservative side, But I do think younger people are more open-minded.
Cheers ;)
My intention with the speculation was merely to give some examples to suggest that the reason for more White man/Asian women couples is not simply down to Western prejudice and media bias and favouritism. Of course this plays a significant role, but I was trying to provide a case that it is a complex issue, full of other explanations (this was in response to an article by Ask a Korean.
DeleteHope that clears-up my motivations. Many thanks for commenting.
Basketball players, football players, soccer players and some business owners are professionals within different fields Paartherapie
ReplyDeleteAsian
ReplyDeleteWhite
Hispanic
Black
Alot of thing are sorted in that order. The male of lower status groups reach for women of higher status. The anomaly is that we're living in an age that most Asians (and whites) don't realize they're of the highest status which is leading to alot of Asian women's poor mating selection. Sucks for their kids.
So we'll always have the following occur:
Asian men complaining about their women with non-Asians.
White men complaining about their women with Hispanics and Blacks.
Hispanic men complaining about their women with Blacks.
Black men complaining about their women
It's a generalization, and I could write papers on this (I have), but it seems like the whole internet is so clueless.
Yes, the status of groups (often caused by society, history, media, etc) are probably the number one factor for sure and I think I said as much in the original post. I was never arguing against this, but was merely speculating on other possible factors. Also, the effect of height of men, for example, effects their perceived status in the eyes of women.
DeleteI have just one question about what you write here; surely status is more important to women than men? You wrote this:
"The male of lower status groups reach for women of higher status."
Surely this isn't true but mainly the other way round, surely Women of lower status reach for men of higher status? Evolutionary biologists have been telling us for years of the major differences between how men and women perceive attractiveness of a mate. While there is some divergence between the two, it is clear women value status more than men, who value appearance higher than anything else. In the majority of cases it is also women who select a mate, not the other way round.
While I am sure there is a fascination in many men in lower status groups for women in high status groups, I don't see this as a driving force in the abundance of Asian women with While men rather than Asian men with White women, indeed it makes very little sense. Unless Asians are the highest status group, which you seem to say, yet I can't believe and TheKorean (who wrote the original article to which I responded) would not agree with also. Indeed the whole point of his article was to argue that White people were put in the higher status bracket by prejudice in society.
In short, I agree with you, but I am slightly confused about the details of what you wrote.
I'm not sure.on the exact data pertaining to what you are saying here. I guess it would be interesting to find out, though, but I doubt it goes into that much detail.
DeleteI've seen plenty of unattractive males and females of all races in America. I've leaved and worked in America almost 40 years now. Whatever happened to marrying someone for love. I am a korean female and married to an American while male; we fell in love and never thought of any of the stats or reasons why we should/should not be married. It appears that some people like to analyze everything and put ideas into people's head by posting this type of blog on the Internet. I hope that you don't have any kids b/c if you do, they will learn this from you and that they will follow this same pattern as they grow. How sad!!!
ReplyDeleteLove, of course it's about love. But what makes Asian women fall in love more often with White men than Asian men with White women? It is a perfectly legitimate question to speculate about. And as I must seem to reiterate 100 times to so many people who refuse to read my posts properly, the original post was in response to TheKorean's blog where he speculated the reason was solely down to Western prejudice. I thought that was unfair and decided to write about other possible reasons.
DeleteI believe it is only possible for me to put ideas into people's heads if they take the time to read my posts on an insignificant blog and I respect people's ability to make up their own minds about things.
Get off your high horse, and answer the challenge, which no one seems to be able to do, instead of throwing insults at me for how I will bring up my children in the future (how dare you by the way), and making a string of non-arguments. By what you wrote it is like I said that every American was a handsome beast or something and other races are ugly, never even hinted at anything remotely like that. Read again, and again, and then again and you must just grasp the points I was trying to make. It might also help if you read the original post and found out the context in which the whole post was written.
Our Father who art in heaven, halo be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Amen.
ReplyDeleteOur Father who art in heaven, halo be thy name, thy kingdom come thy will be done, one earth as it is in heaven, give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us, and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Amen.
ReplyDeleteWow is good to be back with my ex again, thank you Dr Ekpen for the help, I just want to let you know that is reading this post in case you are having issues with your lover and is leading to divorce and you don’t want the divorce, Dr Ekpen is the answer to your problem. Or you are already divorce and you still want him/her contact Dr Ekpen the spell caster now on (ekpentemple@gmail.com) and you will be glad you did
ReplyDelete