http://askakorean.blogspot.kr/2013/10/excreting-dregs.html
I won't re-write what he wrote, but I am going to summarise it by saying that the overall conclusion is that his answer to the question in my title is because of a deep-seated racism and cultural stereotyping which consciously and unconsciously effects people's choices. Actually, I agree that this could be a considerable factor, but there are other things that should not be over-looked. This post will not be a direct response as such because I do not live and have never lived in America and I don't know what it is like there, but some of the things I bring up here will at least have some relevance to the subject.
My expertise is with Korea, so I am going to look at the question from the point of view of living in Korea. Let me first acknowledge, however, that it probably is true that society puts the white man on top of the social status pyramid and because status is a major influence on a woman's taste in a man, this is of course a big element to the whole thing, which is part of what The Korean is talking about. It is not, however, the only reason.
How Well do the Cultures Mix?
I suspect that a very conservative way of looking at women is present in many other Asian countries as well as Korea. In Korea, women are still discriminated against in a variety of ways, so much so that Korea was ranked 108th in global gender equality - much to the disbelief of many Korean men who seem to think that, if anything, they are the ones being hard done by (which always makes me laugh).
With this in mind then, it is pretty easy to see the appeal of a cross-cultural relationship (i.e. to a Western man). A Korean woman can have greater freedoms, not worry about her traditional responsibilities, not be so concerned of a strained relationship with the in-laws (one of the main reasons for divorce in Korea), and maybe able to escape to another country altogether that treats women better and gives them better opportunities. Not to mention the fact that women are generally a little more communicative than men generally, and in Korea especially this means that they are more likely to strike up a conversation with a Western man in the first place, making it more likely they will form a relationship. I have also noticed that Western men seem to be a little bolder in approaching women as well.
If you think of the situation the other way round, however, is there as much appeal for a Western woman to be with a Korean man and indeed for the Korean man to be with the Western woman? This seems a little bit more of a problematic relationship and despite the fact there are many success stories, here are some of the problems I foresee for such couples, which are not insurmountable, but definitely make things more difficult:
* A Western woman is far less likely to be the model daughter in-law for a Korean family and put-up with all the duties that the average Korean family requires (I have had a few responses to my blogs by Western women who married Korean men stating this very problem).
* Korean men are often more conservative in nature and this allows less freedom for a Western woman, who may well value her independence more than your average Korean woman. This could be frustrating for the woman as well as the man.
* A Western woman may be forced to move into a society that gives her less opportunities and less freedom.
* A Korean man could be more intimidated by a perhaps a more independent and outspoken Western woman.
* A Western woman may well be intimidated by a more conservative Korean man.
The fact of a more liberal West and a more conservative East immediately makes a difference in the appeal of an Asian/Western relationship between a man and a woman. I know TheKorean's post was about America, but the cultural element must not have been lost completely and is still relevant. If you are going to say these are all stereotypes not applicable to everyone, then yes, they aren't applicable to everyone, but we need only identify a trend to explain the differences in relationships. If you think that Asian men are generally not more likely to have conservative attitudes (especially if they live in an Asian country), I'd advise you to travel to an Asian country and see for yourself or stop being in denial. Most Korean men I know are far more conservative than I am used to in my own culture. All of them, no, but most of them, yes.
Again the argument also works the other way and that because of a more liberal West, Asian women with a more traditional outlook on life - for better or worse - could well be more appealing as a long-term partner for some Western men.
For these reasons then, I think it is clear to see that the combination of Eastern and Western culture in a relationship between two people does favour the Asian woman with the Western man rather than the other way round.
In Korea, Foreigners are Dangerous and Therefore Attractive
Actually, TheKorean hinted at the cause for this in his post when he talked about the response of many Asian men saying stupid things like, "They are stealing our women."
If you have lived in Korea for any length of time, you will have heard of a few TV shows that got all us foreigner's knickers in a bit of a twist regarding Western men preying on Korean women in Korea and the general distrust of Western men in the news generally. Grave warnings of us evil foreigners using them for one-night stands, having sex, then jettisoning them the next day, as well as the risk of contracting AIDS from us.
In reality, all us foreigners that are interested in Korean women should have thanked MBC and the rest for doing us such a favour and making us all appear significantly more attractive than we actually are. I have been musing for years why my friends that treat women terribly seem to get all the action, while I struggle away being nice and coming-up with diddly-squat. This might come as news for some, but women the world over get a kick out of dating the bad guy. Every time the Korean media say we are dangerous and not to be trusted, us foreign fella's sex appeal goes up just one more notch.
Now, the statistics probably won't show-up one night stands, just marriages and maybe long-term relationships, but that is the beauty of the whole thing for guys like me and other fine, upstanding young gentlemen. I am about as dangerous as a butterfly on ecstasy, but the mystery and danger that immediately surrounds me as a white guy in Korea, makes me much more desirable than back home. When it turns out that us "nice guys" treat our date well and don't use them for sex, abuse them, or give them AIDS, we probably look like the best things since sliced bread. We are dangerous and gentle all at the same time. This was definitely a factor in me meeting my wife and by the time she had figured out how normal and boring I really am, I had already charmed my way into her affections with my "niceness", something which - in my experience - upon first meeting most women, seems to be about as attractive as talking about cricket to them.
It Must be Taken into Consideration
Now, before you shoot me, I am not saying that the following argument is true but I have heard it coming from a few Korean women I know, so I think it is worth addressing. It could simply be that, on average, Western men (White in particular) are just more attractive than Asian guys to more Asian women than Asian men are to white women, and I am not simply talking about the role that popular culture and stereotypes play on our sub-conscious, maybe they just naturally are.
You would be hard-pressed to find anyone denying that Asian men are on-average smaller than White or Black men. So what is naturally attractive for a woman as a mate? Size and strength must be a factor. It sounds almost too stupid and offensive to say, but coincidentally my wife - who is currently living in Australia - had a conversation with her Japanese flatmate yesterday on precisely this topic. They both said they prefer white men because they are usually bigger. Each to their own of course and there will be many Asian women who don't like a bigger man, but this has come up quite regularly in conversation with the Asian women I know.
Of course, what this does also suggest is some hypocrisy and that the image society portrays for the races is relevent because they don't often find themselves attracted to black men. With this in mind then there is most probably an effect on the mind of Asian women by society, stereotypes and racism even when it comes to Asian men, I am certainly not denying it. However, I am going to take at least some of what they say as a genuine preference a bit like people preferring brunettes or blondes. It could simply be that Asian men just aren't as attractive to many women like the ginger-haired are often considered less attractive in the West.
White men also, tend to vary in aspects of their physical appearance in ways Asian men do not. I am not saying any of this makes White men superior, the simple fact is that Asian women may well be attracted to these differences. White Westerners stand-out in the crowd, like brighter feathers on a peacock. Blonde hair, blue or green eyes, white skin, these could all simply amount to White guys being more desirable for many Asian women (no theory should go unexplored when you are grasping for the truth, I refuse to fold to political correctness on this blog). If other animals can be attracted by shows of colour or simply different physical traits, why not humans?
Going the other way, Asian women tend to be quite petit, slimmer and arguably more feminine than their White sisters, which may appeal to all men as well. Certainly there is a general trend for Asians, both male and female to be smaller and slimmer, so what do these traits tend to favour in the looks department, men or women?
So while a form of racism and stereotyping exists that harms an Asian man's chances of bagging a White Western woman, this is certainly not the whole story. Every issue that exists between the races is not solely down to ignorance, prejudice, and discrimination. We must explore all avenues, even if some of those avenues sound like they are being racist themselves. We cannot let the "isms" blind objectivity, which seems to be happening too often lately.
TheKorean seems to like talking about an ocean of different cultural possibilities - when an outsider tries to explain Korean culture - that make it difficult to come to conclusions. Without further research the issue of why there are more Asian women with white men is like the ocean in that it may be difficult to pinpoint one particular reason and it may change for different people, but with an overall trend possibly present somewhere. Why then, when the subject of discrimination or racism and Western culture come into focus does he narrowly forget the ocean analogy and zero-in on one reason for the trends we see in Western society related to Asians. I see a double-standard at work here because if trying to explain the behaviour of Asian people based on culture is difficult, he should acknowledge that it is also difficult to explain Western people this way also.
Note: If you believe this post was offensive (like a few people have) why not have a look at my challenge in the follow-up to this post: http://smudgem.blogspot.kr/2013/10/a-challenge-re-my-asianwhite-couples.html
I don't see why nobody bothers to mention that in Korea there are many more Korean women than Foreign women. This alone makes it far more likely that foreign men in Korea are going to date and/or marry Korean women. In the US, there are far more white men than Asian men, why would Asian women statistically be more likely to marry Asian men?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
Deletecause white women are more likely to not marry asian men and the statistic remains unchanged. af/wm marriage is rising so fast that am/wf interracial marriage is almost non existence.
DeleteI guess it is the upbringing and cultural traits. The Asian especially East Asian treat marriage as sacred, divorce is not an option. If a Korean or Japanese or Chinese were to accept and married you, you can be sure that he will stick with you throughout. He will accept the responsibility to take care of you no matter what. So I guess it is this commitment traits that put off many of these guys from marrying Western girls. So when they marry their own race, there is this understanding that they are in it together. East Asian guys would not be assured that long lasting relationship will be obtain when a foreign bride is concern. The media doesn't help much about portraying of western women either.
Delete...and obviously people are dodging a really obvious reason; white women, generally speaking, aren't interested in a statistically, ahem, 'less equipped' guy. There are exceptions to the rule, and exceptions to the men, but in general base expectancies come into play before any interest in a relationship.
DeleteMaybe the question should be why do more Asian men in the US prefer to marry Asian women? Could the discrepancy have more to do with the preferences and selections made by Asian men than by the Asian women? I grew up in the southern part of the US, and it really bothers me when people automatically assume that the natural dating pool for people of Asian decent has to come from what is often limited to only five or six local families.
ReplyDeleteYes, I think you make a good point there. Often people point to the woman's choice of partner, but there are many cultural motivations for Asian men to be with Asian women that are nothing to do with Western stereotypes of Asians. Like I said in the post, though, I find I have no way of really commenting on what goes on in the US as my only experience is of LAX and Miami airports.
DeleteThanks, it's rare that a lack of experience with the US would keep somebody from commenting on it, but I appreciate it all the same.
DeleteI think you are right with Asian American men preferring to marry Asian women. You might have seen Asian men complaining on forums or in public where they believe that white women reject them all the time for their race. However, these guys are usually socially awkward and often not the best looking dudes out there. They usually don't do well with any women. How often do you see a tall, in shape, and successful Asian man complaining about whether white women find them attractive? Most of these guys usually don't even care for white women. Think about it ... A guy like Jeremy Lin probably got tons of white women throwing themselves at him. Yet you don't see him trying to get with a new model GF every 6 months. There are also many Japanese baseball stars in the MLB now and you don't really hear about mistresses, baby mamas, or prostitutes in the same way you hear with many black or white athletes. I think the reason why you don't see as many Asian men with White women is due to a lack interest from both sides. Not just white women. Generally speaking of course.
DeleteYeah, I think it is a combination of both, like you say.
Deletewell...alot of my Asian male friends tell me that they cannot go for white women because their parents wouldn't like it due to two reasons.
ReplyDeletea. Blood line name: they want the mans last name to go on forever
b. Blood line race: for reason 'a.' they want their children to be 100% Korean blooded
c. Western women wouldn't want to work as hard as Asian women would for their husbands
again, not my words but my Asian male friends' words.
Yeah, I reckon many more possible reasons for the difference might pop-up in comments here and elsewhere that I over-looked in the post and that is a very possible one. Like I said with the previous comment, I think many people assume the difference between the relationship stats are down to the women's choice, based on social status issues (maybe caused by stereotypes and racism), but as you rightly mention men choose too and often in Asian cultural ways. I wish I had included that in my post, but I guess it is in the comment section now, thanks.
Deleteso korean men lose korean female to white guys more easily.
Deletewell, I am Asian, one thing I have found is that Asians seem to have this aesthetic sense that seem to favor European features for some reason, in another word, it is far easier for Asian women to find European guys good looking compare other races, including their own.
ReplyDeleteI know what I have just said is very politically incorrect, but it certainly reflect my experiences....
I personally think this kind aesthetic sense is partly biologically wired, that is why disagree with your statement on racism as an factor on why Korean women might not go for Black men. I mean yes, it is definitely a factor when it comes to deciding whether or not one would enter into a relationship with another person, but if you are talking from aesthetic sense alone, to be perfect honest, if it is just a racial thing, then one would logically conclude that would apply to other darker skinned races such as Indian men or Latino men even. But that is not the case at all.
I have personally came across many Indian men and Latino men that I find quite physically attractive, but for some reason or another, I never had that experience with Black men, and I know many Asian girls have similar experiences as well.
I hate political correctness, so I appreciate some politically incorrect statements here. Honesty is a much better thing.
DeleteI did speculate that the liking for white men might be biologically wired, it was pure speculation, but it obviously wasn't a completely crazy and idiotic point. I was just trying to explore all avenues, but it seems that you, at least, partly back-up what I said.
Thank you for your point of view on other races also.
you are both incorrect. I am an evolutionary biologist. We are wired either to find attractive "the same" or "other". For those of us wired as other, we are attracted to other races/ethnicities/differences. In all of my studies, and all of the scientific studies to date, we have found no evidence of attraction to a particular race from a biological/neurobiological point of view.
DeleteOther social scientists have found social links, i.e. we are conditioned to prefer some cultures/ethnicities over others, based on our stereotypes about those cultures/ethnicities.
My area of interest has particularly been in the area of "yellow" fever (I am an Asian female) - but so far we have not been able to find a biological basis for preference for a particular race.
Many thanks for clearing that up for us. Your input is much appreciated.
DeleteI have a question though, another commenter mentioned the propensity for Asian cultures to be found of white skin and that this goes back a 1000 years to the time of the Geishas in Japan. Could it be that a culture simply values a physical aspect and then purely by chance another race then fits this, making them more attractive to them?
To be honest, Smudgem, I was disappointed by this post, for two reasons.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all:
Because The Korean's post was pretty clearly about Asian-Americans, not about interracial marriage in Korea, and the dynamics of power, race, privilege, gender role expectation and "othering" work very differently in Korea. Korean women in Korea who choose to marry white men are probably doing it for quite different reasons, and in a very different context, than Korean-American women living in America. It's apples and oranges.
Secondly:
One of the things that really impressed me about The Korean's discussion of the issue was the nuance he brought to it. To be sure, the discussion of Korean, or Asian-American women marrying (or dating, or just knocking boots with) white men has come up lots and lots of times all over the internet. And most of those times, the conversation has gone to the same old places - stereotypes about white men, asian women, asian men, and white women (who often seem to get drawn into it) all abound, and everybody ends up being pigeonholed and then getting upset that somebody else pigeonholed them.
The Korean's post was a refreshing look at the issue -- he refused to make any statements along the lines of "asian-american men are usually..." or "the kind of asian girls who marry white men are..." -- instead he talked about systematic racism, internalization, and warned about the dangers of, basically, reacting to racism with misogyny, which is often what happens in the conversations I've seen. His call for Asian-American men to do better than that - to recognize the nuances of the issue and walk a very difficult tightrope - made me very happy.
In this article, I see most of the stereotypes that I was happy The Korean avoided. White men are bigger and stronger (read: more manly - the emasculation thing is funny because the stereotypes of Asian men are that they're both LESS manly, but then also more patriarchal and domineering... how does that work?); go visit some Kpop fan blogs on tumblr... there are PLENTY of women who find Asian men VERY attractive. The old chestnut about white men rescuing asian women from conservative gender role expectations in their Korean culture (as if no Korean families have updated their expectations since 1880, which is bull) and even calling asian women "more feminine than their white sisters" -- what I see here as a response to a really nice, nuanced and novel look at what's REALLY going on with Asian-American women marrying white men, is a restatement of all the stereotypes and tropes that make that conversation so tiresome.
You wrote: "It could simply be that, on average, Western men (White in particular) are just more attractive than Asian guys to more Asian women than Asian men are to white women, and I am not simply talking about the role that popular culture and stereotypes play on our sub-conscious, maybe they just naturally are."
How on earth can you sidestep the way Asian men are portrayed and stereotyped in popular culture? (not to mention the way Asian women are, which does no one any favors either re: fetishization and sexualization - http://creepywhiteguys.tumblr.com/ )
I like this blog almost all the time -- I loved your response to The Korean's thing about Malcolm Gladwell, and generally find your writing thought-provoking, even when I don't agree with it. But I think that this article is well below your usual standard, and I was disappointed with it.
On your first point, I clearly wrote in the post the following:
Delete"This post will not be a direct response as such because I do not live and have never lived in America and I don't know what it is like there, but some of the things I bring up here will at least have some relevance to the subject."
So I really don't know how I am guilty of the offence you mentioned. If none of the reasons I gave in this post were at all relevant to the discussion in America, I would be very surprised, but still I did say it was not a direct response.
On your second point, as I said in my post, I totally agree with what TheKorean wrote about systematic racism, popular culture and stereotypes and the play on the sub-conscious, and the warning of the classic Asian reaction.
The problem I had is he did not delve into any of the other possibilities and many of them are rooted in stereotypes that have more than a little truth to them. The following is true (how can you deny it):
White guys tend to be bigger
Culturally, Asians tend to be more conservative, patriarchal and domineering (it works because one is a physical trait and the others are attitudes)
Asian women are generally smaller and slimmer (last time I checked big and bulky was more man like and small and slim was more woman like, just be honest about it)
Some Asian women definitely enjoy having the cultural expectations lifted off their shoulders by not marrying an Asian man, my wife is a classic example.
Denying that these are factors is simply trying not to stereotype for the sake of being nice and not repeating old arguments because that isn't cool. None of these need be true of every Asian man or every white man, you just need a significant difference in the behaviours of people brought-up in different cultures. No one is saying every Asian girl is attracted to white men more, just some and enough to make a difference. No one is saying that women don't find Asian men attractive, just the speculation that maybe there is enough of a difference in women who find white guys attractive as opposed to Asian guys (see the above comment by an Asian woman).
I'll be honest, I respect you, but I simply don't think you read this post properly. I never sidestepped the way Asian men are portrayed in popular culture, read the following:
(on TheKoreans conclusions) "the overall conclusion is that his answer to the question in my title is because of a deep-seated racism and cultural stereotyping which consciously and unconsciously effects people's choices. Actually, I agree that this could be a considerable factor, but there are other things that should not be over-looked."
Why do i need write what he wrote all over again?
I also wrote, on Asian women's said preferences:
"this does also suggest is some hypocrisy and that the image society portrays for the races is relevant because they don't often find themselves attracted to black men. With this in mind then there is most probably an effect on the mind of Asian women by society, stereotypes and racism even when it comes to Asian men, I am certainly not denying it."
I disagree with you entirely on TheKorean's piece, he portrayed one reason for it all, and that was basically deep-seated racism in the form of popular culture, stereotypes, etc. I purposely didn't shy away from the classic arguments that might be stereotypical because they are not entirely untrue and do have a bearing on the issue. Denying it was very politically correct and intellectually nuanced of him, but not very honest.
By the way I do appreciate the criticism, just arguing my point.
I'm not sure how you can say (about TK):
ReplyDelete"the overall conclusion is that his answer to the question in my title is because of a deep-seated racism and cultural stereotyping which consciously and unconsciously effects people's choices. Actually, I agree that this could be a considerable factor, but there are other things that should not be over-looked"
And then bring up a bunch of other things that are ALL related to racial and cultural constructions (like the "dangerousness" of westerners, or how marriages play out), which are all based on stereotypes (and I'm NOT claiming that all stereotypes are de facto wrong)?
It's all in the same bag so far as I can see?
TK's rare reflexive protectionism of Korean culture can trip him up in those cases. But most of the time he's pretty right on, and this is one of them.
YMMV^^
My post was merely to provide alternative explanations for the phenomenon and they were openly speculative. Please read my reply to Roboseyo for a full defense of what I wrote.
DeletePlease don't explain relationships between Western women and Korean men when you've never been in one, thanks. We can (and do) speak for ourselves.
ReplyDeletePlease point to where I was wrong, it would be helpful for furthering my knowledge on the subject. As I said to Charles, the post was speculative on purpose. Any reference I made to such relationships was littered with "may well" or "could be."
DeleteOf course, I would never dream of saying that every relationship was this way or that, but who can deny the generally conservative nature of Korean men versus the generally liberal nature of Western women? Stereotype perhaps, but no truth to it at all? It must be issue, perhaps not in your relationship, but it is a thought worth considering when thinking about the phenomenon of less white men Asian women couples, and that is all I am asking.
Feel free to read my blog if you'd like to learn more. I've made numerous, numerous posts in response to comments just like this and I frankly don't feel like explaining things to you that you took it upon yourself to assume about from the outside. I've had this conversation far too many times with far too many men who want to insist that they know more about Western women dating Asian men than I do, and I'm not interested in explaining it anymore. Take responsibility for your own words and do your own research. Or better yet, stick to discussing what you actually know about and leave writing about our lives and our struggles and our decisions to us.
DeleteMy point was that you are obviously angry about something I wrote. You took the time to write on here, what was it that I said? All you need do is copy and paste what I wrote, you could have saved yourself a lot of time, instead you have gotten angry and taken more time than you needed to.
DeleteI don't think I wrote anything really explaining those kinds of relationships with any authority, I merely speculated. Are my speculations true for everyone in every situation, of course not. Why take it so personally, I don't understand? What on earth did I write that could have insulted you so much? I was not talking about you personally.
Why not just tell me what I said? You don't need to explain anything. Just copy and paste what I wrote, at least I'd then know what specifically to look at when I read your blog, I am not going to read every single one of your blogs on the chance that I might just stumble across what got your goat.
Of course she's angry, for some reason people assume white women couldn't possibly be interested in Asian men or possibly vice versa. We're made to feel like there is something strange about us when Rob is right... there are a ridiculous amount of women all over the world of all races that ogle Asian celebrities. Unfortunately, some of them take it so far as to actually move to Korea and assume they will find a Korean man just like on TV... although I have seen many a youtube video pointing out your average Korean eye candy, but I have my own Asian honey in the U.S. so I wouldn't know much about that, lol.
DeleteEssentially, we get tired of others making it seem like it's odd to be in this kind of relationship when there is absolutely nothing weird about it.
Point to the part of the post where I assumed white women couldn't be interested in Asian men.
DeletePoint to the part where I wrote it or even implied it was strange to form such a relationship.
Point out the part where I wrote that all (even some) Asian men are not attractive.
Never said any of them, but it seems speculating that there might be a possibility that more Asian women are attracted to white men than white women are to Asian men is tantamount to saying that all Asian men are unattractive and that if a white woman enters such a relationship it is weird. Sorry, the mental gymnastics you had to perform to get that message from what I wrote completely dumbfounds me.
You didn't get my goat, Chris. You embarrassed yourself in public. There's a difference. Although, judging by how many times you've felt the need to trumpet off about how much you hate political correctness, one might wonder if getting goats is what you're trying to do. I left a simple comment which should be simple to comprehend, which is that you don't know anything about Western women dating Asian men, so you don't need to summarize it, when we do our own writing on the subject and speak for ourselves. Since then, you've displayed quite obviously that you have no intention of trying to accept that you may have been wrong to write what you wrote (by the way, if I were to copy/paste the offending bits, it would basically just be the post), so why should I take time out of my very busy day to write a detailed analysis for you and feed it to you with a baby spoon? Why am I obligated to do that, when you've already explained to several people several times that you're not wrong? Why would I waste my time? Fine. You're not wrong. Carry on, then. And watch the respect your readership has for your credibility continue to decline. It's your blog. And this post in particular is making the rounds pretty swiftly. I have a feeling plenty of other people will be explaining it to you in detail soon enough.
DeleteWhat am I wrong about? You haven't explained, so how can I admit to being wrong, when I don't know what it is I said that you disagree with.
DeleteQuote me.
Have now read all three of the posts Roboseyo linked to carefully, wholeheartedly agree with your points of view and still have no idea why what I wrote is so wrong or has offended you. Please enlighten me. It's easy, right click copy and then paste the bit you disagreed with. Then I can effectively defend myself or admit my own failings.
DeleteI think she's offended with the bit from "I" down to "also".
DeleteSo...the whole thing.
Should be easy to find one example then.
DeleteChristopher,
DeletePlease remember that as a writer you are going to meet people at both ends of the Bell Curve. You have written a very accurate and entertaining article. It just so happens that some of the readers fall at the far left of the bell curve- the roughly 16% of poor performers (intellectually).
There is no need to 'understand' readers such 'no picasso' and robosayo- I have read from both of their blogs and you have truly out shone them both.You have already proved your point- you must get used to these people- who really have no idea about narration. You have got the gift and they do not. Don't write for people like this- write for yourself. You are spot on and the people who see and understand writing- and what you are doing- are thankful. Your writing is a breath of fresh air- so ignore the philistines.
Your situation with this article is like that of a great French chef coming down to Texas street in Busan, making a five course dinner, and then having some drunk soju ajossis surrounding him and start yelling in his face- telling him he knows nothing about cooking because he forgot to put daenjong paste in the Pot au feu. Laugh it off and get busy writing more things!
.
Haha, thanks for the support. It has all been good debating practice though.
DeleteWhat I basically got from this conversation:
DeleteI'm no Picasso will be abbreviated to P
And Christopher Smith to CM
(I ignored any other comments in this conversation)
P: YOU ARE WRONG!!! AND I'm so offended ...SO INCREDIBLY OFFENDED! *dramatically enters*
CM: oh. What exactly are you offended about.
P: Read my BLOG! I'm not interested in explaining it ANYMORE ...far to EXHAUSTING. *dramatic scarf wave* FIND IT YOURSELF...
CM: ok...you are offended. but what EXACTLY did offend you.
P: You EMBARRASSED yourself in public ...for ASKING A QUESTION *LE gasp*
Of course EVERYTHING is wrong!!! I left a simple comment which should be SIMPLE TO COMREHEND...meaning YOU ARE DUMB AS FUCK..and I am FAR SUPERIOUR ...you DUMB FUCK. *waves hair*
Why would I have to explain my GENIUS COMMENT to YOU!
CM: ...
...
>>>>>>>>
At least that's what I pictured in my mind when reading this conversation...
@CM: I think this person basically says you are wrong for ever daring to think about/SAY/talk about ...what white females might think and in what situation they are.
wow.
I am sorry this conversation makes me angry.
Actually not sorry. This just makes me angry.
Greetings
Sniper
PS:
I am white and female.
@P: and if you leave SUCH a comment...and he ASKS for CLARIFICATION...YOU ANSWER...or YOU look stupid. Well...that's what you do for me anyway. *dramatic exit*
of course...CM for Christopher sMith ...*coughs*...yeah...that was totally intentional. Totally.
DeleteSniper
Think you summed the whole conversation up quite nicely. I am still none the wiser as to what I wrote that offended her. She does seem to have a nice blog (after reading, I still didn't know why she was upset though) but I think this conversation was not her finest hour.
DeleteWow, the anonymous' response on Oct. 13, is extremely racist. Unbelievable...
Delete@Christopher re: I'm No Picasso
ReplyDeleteShe doesn't owe you anything, not even the comment she left already. That she expressed her thought rather than ignoring it is a favor to you that you are not owed. If she decides from here on, it's up to you to do the leg work, that's her prerogative.
But you owe it to the women you know who are making relationship choices you don't understand, and to women in general, who get men (and particularly white men, like me) speaking on their behalves All The Time, instead of respecting their voices, to figure out their motivations before speaking for them, or to just defer and give them the floor. It's not that hard to google around a little. Here are some of INP's own words about the two sets of relationships discussed here:
On WF/AM relationships: a three part series (sweet!). Read it all. As we know from MBC "documentaries" about English teachers, copy/paste pull quotes are risky:
http://imnopicasso.blogspot.kr/2010/10/myth-part-i-before-korea-sleeping-with.html#more
On AF/WM relationships:
http://imnopicasso.blogspot.kr/2010/09/grand-narrative-and-amr-hello-im-woman.html
There is lots more reading from the actual sources, about these issues, not just at INP's blog: Asian-American Men writing about dating white women, Asian-American women writing about dating white men. White women writing about dating Asian men. In Korea and America. There's no need to write about something you don't know about (even WITH a disclaimer), and regurgitate what is being said by white men on behalf of all the other parties (which is what this post sounded like to me, and which is what you find at Dave's), when google is at your fingertips.
Re: your reply to my comment:
Yes, it's popular to say "Yeah, but stereotypes come from truths!" I've probably said it myself. But what happens when we justify stereotyping that way, is that we shut out the possibility that if we look at the issue more carefully, or let the stereotyped groups speak for themselves, we might come to a much more interesting, nuanced conversation, than the conversation that comes about when people keep shouting stereotypes, and (because of it) the people interested in nuanced discussion tune out. The Korean's post, to me, was an attempt to take the conversation in a different direction than it usually goes, and that's laudable. That the response, here and in the comments below his post, have frequently re-emphasized the stereotypes rather than following the path he set out, is a disappointment, and a lost opportunity.
There is lots more to being manly than being large. After all, Rupaul is 193 centimeters tall, while Daniel Craig (James f'ing Bond) is 178 and lionel messi is 169 cm AFTER growth treatment, and his girlfriend (google it) is scorching hot. And hey, if Asian men aren't as manly, why is Asia home to something like 60% of the world's entire population (DESPITE China's one child policy)? I don't need to defend Asian men, though. And Asian men will defend themselves better than I can defend them.
Bigger is not always more attractive, either.
http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/519/423/b62.jpg
Why did The Korean only posit one reason? The systematic, sociocultural reason is the ROOT of the problems, and all the stereotypes that flow form it are the branches and (ugly) flowers of the problem. And as I said earlier, those stereotypes are such well-trod ground, I'd argue it's better to write nothing at all than to trot them out yet again, even if you toss a bone here and there -"well it's probably true that... but still..." "I don't actually know much about... but still..." --- my old roommate used to say "Everything before the but is bull"
Sorry to disagree with you again, but I think she does owe me an explanation of exactly what I wrote that upset her because implicit in her comment was that I not only had no idea what I was talking about, but that I was unjustified and perhaps even discriminatory. Copy and paste, it is easy and risky in the case my my post, really! Instead I have spent my early morning reading through her posts and I am still none the wiser as to how I offended her. In the spirit of debate and free expression, she does owe me because until she tells me what I said wrong I will assume I wrote nothing wrong.
DeleteI did not discriminate or form any sort of prejudice to individuals in that post. Where did I say "all Asians are like this, all women are like that" and I would not ever discriminate or judge anyone I meet based on their race or any physical appearance. The fact is, though that patterns can be found and they have some explaining power.
You don't need to defend Asian men because I never said they were all small and unattractive and I never even said some were unattractive. Saying you know this Asian guy who is tall and this white guy who is short is totally pointless and I might say beneath your powers of debate which I thought were better than this. I pass dozens of Korean on a daily basis who are bigger and taller than me, but significantly less than when I walk the streets of England. So if a bigger guy is your thing as a woman then you will have a larger pool from which to choose from in the UK or the US for exampler. Can you really deny that logic?
Bigger is of course not always more attractive either, but these are the reasons I am hearing from many Korean women. Shall we just disregard this then because it doesn't suit you or the PC crowd? Let's speculate that 55% of women prefer bigger men and 45% prefer smaller men, that would still be enough of a difference to make a difference.
Again it is speculative, but that is what this post was about, looking at all the explanations. Don't agree with them, fair enough, but don't pretend to be offended on behalf of others about something you can't even quote me on.
The "stereotypes" as you call them are well-trod ground but they are extremely unpopular (as this post proves) and this means that people who think they have some explanatory power are vilified and pushed out of the conversation by the liberal majority. They are denounced as anti-intellectual, are implied racists, and even outright called racist. This is unbelievably unfair. As long as you do not discriminate or engage in prejudice towards individuals based on a general rule of thumb or stereotype, I see no problem in using a generalisation and speculating about its effects. I'd argue that this is an important debate to have and trotting them out again is obviously very worthwhile. There is nothing in using these arguments that stops me from understanding these groups when they speak for themselves, or getting the "nuanced" stuff as you (I would say rather arrogantly) call it. All possibilities should be considered and I am doing no shouting.
PS: Your roommate is suddenly an authority now? I am not being disingenuous here, just point to specifically what I wrote and criticise it, instead of trotting out the old chestnut of "Everything before the but is bull" (see I can argue like that too).
You did not spend your early morning reading through my posts, which Rob spent his early morning gathering up and linking for you in a nice little easy package. You can't even be that bothered to try to correct your vision of these relationships. I have a stat tracker installed. You clicked on one -- ONE -- of the links, the one you quoted below, and that was it. Which is exactly what I suspected you would do, which is why I didn't bother to post the links myself. Waste of time.
DeleteRob, you're wasting your time. He doesn't want to understand -- he wants to be right. You tried your best.
If I am so wrong, quote me. And I did spend most of my early morning reading that one post carefully. I am at work and in the process of reading the rest.
DeleteInstead of engaging in clever little games of oneupmanship, why not just tell me what I said that was so wrong. I challenge you to quote me. Both of you are not doing this and I don't understand why.
DeleteWe could clear-up this little misunderstanding in minutes and if I am wrong I will admit it. But i still don't know what you are saying I am wrong about??!!
Here is the link that contains links to the whole three part series INP wrote about western women dating Asian men. I see the link I gave you doesn't link to the follow-up pieces.
ReplyDeletehttp://imnopicasso.blogspot.kr/2010/10/myth-part-ii-in-which-im-no-picasso.html
I assume you are talking about this kind of thing:
Delete"It wasn't what I set out to be. I never put a cap on my interest in Western men. I never had "yellow fever". But it couldn't just be what it was, which was that I was dating men who happened to be Korean. It had to be categorized. I had to be categorized. It had to be 'my thing' in order for it to be acceptable. No, no -- Western women still don't like Korean men, and Korean men still don't like Western women. INP is just into them, and they're just into her."
Where in my post did I say that we should stereotype every couple we see, treat them differently, categorise them or form any opinions about them as individuals? If I saw a Korean man with a Western woman, I would assume they were in love like any other close couple. You miss my point entirely. The fact is the stats show us that these couples are rarer, why is this? Solely down to racism and society's image of the Asian male or could it just be that some of these things you call stereotypes that are off the table for argument now because you say so are a factor as well. An old argument is not necessarily a bad one, and the old arguments are increasingly being dismissed thesedays in favour of more "nuanced" ones. Replace the word "nuanced" with "politically correct" and you come closer to the truth I reckon.
I am inclined to believe at least part of what the Korean women I know say to me and the commenter on this post and not patronise them by saying that they are just being swayed only by deep-seated racism present in society that puts white men on a pedestal. As I will repeat, I am sure there is truth to this but it is not the whole truth.
Part 1:
ReplyDeleteI'm having trouble replying to your specific comments. So here goes.
1. INP's series has four parts. I apologize for giving you the wrong link.
http://imnopicasso.blogspot.kr/2010/10/myth-part-iv-awakening-women-after.html
2. "I assume you are talking about this kind of thing..."
You seem to be missing the point, and if this is the case, I regret giving you a specific link: I shouldn't have. The point is not to read one or two of INP's articles and then stop, figuring you've "Got" it. The point is to accept, respect, and internalize the voices and views of as many people different from you as possible, with views that contradict your own at times, and not to just read with squinted eyes until you find a passage to respond to, or that you can pull out next time you're holding forth on something. INP's post wasn't written as a response to your post, so it doesn't fit perfectly, and it's not a direct refutation. Don't be silly. But INP is a perspective you haven't experienced directly, so it's valuable and you (and I) can learn from it. And so are dozens upon dozens of other blogs and other writing from people different from yourself.
There is robust commentary on the internet about aspects of interracial dating FROM THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. As a white fella married to a Korean women, you are a single perspective on that. You've spoken for yourself; why not let them do the same? That you would take it upon yourself to speak for people when they are capable of speaking for themselves is the problem. A conversation your wife had is a single anecdote, not a trend or a representative sample, but you didn't present it that way. You presented it as if your wife's conversation with a japanese flatmate clearly shows all Asian women feel this way. Confirmation bias is too easy in swapping anecdotes, and as I read online: The plural of anecdote is not data.
Part 2:
Delete3. "nuanced" "politically correct"
What the hell is wrong with political correctness?
Can we agree that language has power? Yes. I think we can agree about that. For a pretty cut and dry example, let's take the "N" word, an epithet for black people. Using that word is politically incorrect, because it reinforces centuries-old injustices and power unbalances. So we don't use that word. Political correctness means we're trying to correct a power dynamic that has been way unbalanced for a long time. Is it a bad thing that when we talk about black people, we are trying to use language that gives them respect as humans? Is it a bad thing to avoid words that will send groups of people away from a conversation in disgust, depriving the conversation of their voices, and thereby limiting the possible outcomes of the conversation? I hope you don't think so.
Epithets aren't the only way language has power. Giving somebody a voice, or taking it away, by letting them speak, or speaking for them, is an act involving power. Silencing a voice is a form of oppression. Saying that it's not worth listening to them, that everything they think that's worthwhile is over here, where I'm rephrasing it. That they don't need to - or aren't capable of - speaking for themselves. Speaking on behalf of people who are capable of speaking for themselves does this.
Do I think certain images of Asian men, asian women ,asian families and asian family expectations need to be taken off the table entirely? No. But I think the people who will be more effective talking about them (with more 'nuance') are people who have experienced it firsthand, and from one white anglo male to another, our voice has been heard so often, speaking for people and silencing people and taking it upon ourselves to explain the lives of people who have their own voices, and their own ability to represent themselves, that it's the least we can do to give them their own voices. This is a blog. It's easy to post links on blogs.
And when I listen to the actual voices of people, I don't hear stereotypes. I hear personal accounts that are powerful and meaningful. Some of them show features of certain stereotypes to varying degrees, some don't, but the stereotype is NEVER the full story. Some are extreme cases. Some are middle-of-the-road. For every Asian family that disowns their daughter for marrying a white fella, there's a family who wants their daughter to marry a white fella in order to get a green card, or because they've internalized stereotypes about their OWN culture, and don't want their daughter to have to go through that. And there are men and women who contradict every stereotype. Scads of them. I've encountered all those cases, and don't think the three I mentioned above are anywayre near the final word in the conversation. I think you should believe what the Korean women you know say to you. It's patronizing to tell them they don't actually think what they think, that's true. But I think you should also look at bigger issues of power and internalized racism as part of the context, and asking about where their views come from (asking, not telling them) might create a more 'nuanced' conversation with them, that would be harder to use as a pull-quote in a blog post. I think you could also leave space for the possiblity the Korean women you know don't represent ALL Korean women and all possible experiences (especially if you're using pull-quotes from conversations about them as support for stereotypes -- which they might not appreciate - I wouldn't if you did it to me).
Part 3, and then I'm done here.
DeletePolitical correctness is more than a language game, and it's not censorship -- self-censorship or any other kind. Political correctness is clearing space for voices other than the ones that have traditionally held most of the power, and that's a GOOD thing if we want a just society. If political correctness means people stick to talking about what they know, and leave room for other stories that present different views, inviting more people to the table for conversation, that's a good thing, isn't it? Those conversations will be more fruitful than people talking about stuff they don't actually know about, won't they? Rejecting political correctness out of hand comes across to me as intentionally choosing to be ignorant and/or offensive.
Honoring acutal people's actual voices seems to be a good thing, and ignoring them with broad categorizations seems to be a bad thing to me. So if that's what it means to bring "nuance" or "political correctness" into a conversation... well then I'm all for it, and can't understand why you aren't.
Here are some links to other people talking about why Political Correctness is good. I've noticed that most of the people who complain about political correctness are white men... so here are some other perspectives.
http://theangryblackwoman.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/in-defense-of-political-correctness/
http://www.tnhonline.com/opinion/the-54-percent-in-defense-of-political-correctness-1.2916426#.UlX1e2RmVD8
I REALLY like the third paragraph of this one, as a good reason to reconsider political correctness: http://mixosaurus.co.uk/2013/08/a-defence-of-political-correctness/
on Political correctness in Britain - http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/mehdi-hasan/2009/10/cambridge-union-correctness
From the conclusion:
"But covering all of this in the cloak of grievance now called political correctness just makes things more difficult. Let's agree at the outset that it is a good thing to have respect, to be civil, to be inclusive, to avoid unnecessary offence, to try to act to give the various sections of society equal opportunities." http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/dec/21/philip-davies-political-correctness
Frustratingly wrong. How can you say that I implied that I:
Delete1. "presented it as if your wife's conversation with a japanese flatmate clearly shows all Asian women feel this way."
I provided it as a point of view nothing more, worth considering. Again, quote me if you thought this is what I did. Don't put words in my mouth.
2. I can read all these articles you are asking me to read, and I will, but point to where I was wrong in my post, please, you are not doing this. Please actually quote it so I can defend it, rather than giving your own version of events.
3. There is nothing wrong with political correctness, it definitely has its plus points as you say and I whole-heartedly agree we couldn't do without it, but there can be when it gets in the way of discovering the truth and vilifying others, which it is used to do all too often. All I am saying is that it is not the be all and end all. You are the one that seems hell bent on ignoring opinions, I was completely open and in fact agreed with what TheKorean said, it was what he did not say that I took issue with. Its as though you think that I think going around saying the 'N' word is a good thing, stop putting word in my mouth. You have gone off on a tangent here and assumed my position and wasted a lot of writing in the process.
4. "Silencing a voice is a form of oppression. Saying that it's not worth listening to them, that everything they think that's worthwhile is over here, where I'm rephrasing it. That they don't need to - or aren't capable of - speaking for themselves. Speaking on behalf of people who are capable of speaking for themselves does this."
Please tell me how I am silencing others or speaking for them? Again quote me. Who am I saying is not worth listening to? If I have misrepresented anyone, please quote what I said. Your constant failure to do so is damning. You must debate with the words I used, not what you personally think I was trying to say.
5. How can you disregard my talking to my wife and her friends as mere anecdote that is to be disregarded (and imply that I then equate all Asian women as the same, when I clearly did not) and then state that when you personally speak to people this is somehow more meaningful and shows how wrong the stereotypes are? My point is that people are different, treat them like individuals but be open to exploring patterns in certain groups that can explain certain behaviour.
I never, not once ever, said that my wife and her friends responses were representative of all Korean women. And in case you still think I think this, I don't think it.
End of Debate.
DeleteCLEAR Winner: Smith 10, Robysayo 1
Congrats- now can we move on?
If this is the only thing I read from you, it will be the last..
ReplyDeleteAs someone of mixed heritage, I shudder to think of how you might educate your children as to what you think about the society their mother comes from, and you elucidate your beliefs that you rescued her from indentured servitude. Way to go.
Oh, White men are just "naturally" more attractive... Yeah wonder why that is... The only Asian character in American media to get the white girl had to survive a zombie apocalypse for it to happen.
Roboseyo says you are thoughtful so I'll perhaps read more, but this isn't a good start.
I really wish someone would read the post and quote me on a specific thing I said and not misconstrue it to suit your their own opinion of what I wrote. Let's take that "naturally" more attractive in a full quote shall we:
Delete"Now, before you shoot me, I am not saying that the following argument is true but I have heard it coming from a few Korean women I know, so I think it is worth addressing. It could simply be that, on average, Western men (White in particular) are just more attractive than Asian guys to more Asian women than Asian men are to white women"
Pure speculation on my part, which was what the whole post was about. "not saying this is true" "It could be". I am simply asking the question and clearly not saying all Asian men are less attractive. And it wasn't even my opinion, just the most common argument I hear from Korean women for the greater prevalence of White men Asian woman couples.
I also am in total agreement with the systematic racism or at least white favouritism you are hinting at in the American media, as I wrote on a number of occasions in that post:
On TheKorean's conclusion: "deep-seated racism and cultural stereotyping which consciously and unconsciously effects people's choices. Actually, I agree that this could be a considerable factor"
"Let me first acknowledge, however, that it probably is true that society puts the white man on top of the social status pyramid and because status is a major influence on a woman's taste in a man, this is of course a big element to the whole thing"
"With this in mind then there is most probably an effect on the mind of Asian women by society, stereotypes and racism even when it comes to Asian men, I am certainly not denying it."
"So while a form of racism and stereotyping exists that harms an Asian man's chances of bagging a White Western woman, this is certainly not the whole story"
You know what I'll teach my children? That everyone is an individual and should be treated with equal respect, to never judge them or discriminate against them. If you can find any part of what I wrote that advocates any prejudice or special treatment against people of different backgrounds and races whatsoever, I will apologise.
Dude, I notice you like to down play the racism component. I suspect your wife doesn't believe she is racist either??
DeleteIn regards to white male attractiveness you stated "...maybe they just naturally are" based on the size argument. The size (as determination of attractiveness) is only a part of it. If you were to put a 6 ft white dude and 6ft asian dude in front of (what appears to be) the asian women you know, shall we guess at which one they will "still" find more attractive? Hair color as a preference is vastly different than race as a preference.
The amount of plastic surgery going on in Asia (not just korea) to look more western (double eyelids and high bridge nose) is not based on a 'natural' aesthetic "preference" but a symptom of a system inferiority complex. Your wife and many Asians have just internalized it so well that it seems natural for them to feel that way.
I doesn't matter how many times I say so, people will still say that I wrote that I think White guys are more attractive than Asian guys and that Asian women are more attracted to White guys, despite actually saying the exact opposite.
DeleteWhat I actually said was maybe eye colour, hair colour and size could make more Asian women attracted to White men than White women are attracted Asian males, explaining the discrepancy in relationship statistics. Not that more Asian women are attracted to White men than Asian men, which is obviously (so obviously it seems almost painful to point out) is not the case.
I am glad to know also that you seem to know my wife better than me (and herself) and that you clearly insinuate she might be a racist. The irony is that you insinuate racism and then tarnish all Asians with not knowing their own minds.
And there you have it ladies and gentlemen. The reason I generally avoid foreigners in Korea like a plague. Lots of pseudo intellectual outrage over an opinion on a person's personal blog. Congrats, I'm sure you all feel very important now.
ReplyDeleteWell said. They have at least made me feel important.
DeleteI'd still love to know exactly what it was they are getting upset about, but instead of accepting several invitations to quote me directly, they choose to write a long rambling response of straw men, links, and hurt feelings and then moan about not wasting their time to spend a couple of seconds copying and pasting what I actually wrote. Then have the cheek to say that I'm stubborn for not accepting my wrong-doings, the same ones they haven't even pointed out to me yet.
So, in the midst of all the academians for color-washing your blog for not being PC, I guess some empathy in form of intellectual dialog will be in place. Shout out to baycun for being cool though.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, we need to address the deciding factor, i.e. women. They are the key component, and their reason for it; Hypergamy. Here's a nice little article dappling in benefits and consequences of it, but you can google it, and get pretty much the same idea behind it. Yes it's genetically intrinsic, now let me finish.
http://www.the-spearhead.com/2012/02/17/james-taranto-takes-on-hypergamy/
It is essentially the principle of parasitic near-symbiotic behavior to acquire power, either physical or conceptual (such as monetary), through the proxy of relationship.
With that in mind you mentioned the, already well surveyed, phenomenon of women being (regressively) attracted to taller, if not just bigger males. Which neatly ties in with a woman's nature to do so, and add in the factor that westerners per genetic average, are just that.
http://www.targetmap.com/ThumbnailsReports/5744_THUMB_IPAD.jpg
+1 for Chris
We also need to account for the aesthetic preference towards the neotenous trait of fair skin, at least within Asia, all though pretty much all races have this disposition to some degree, by the factor of neoteny. One of the earliest examples of such genetic predisposition bleeding into a culture, would be that of the Geisha. (1000 AD)
http://www.immortalgeisha.com/history_01.php
A coincidental advantage, if there ever was one, but there it is.
+2 for Chris
Skewed divorce rates!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1741-3729.2008.00491.x/pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interracial_marriage_in_the_United_States
Interracial couples have a much higher divorce probability than of the homogeneous ones (source no.1), BUT if we look specifically Asian/Caucasian pairings, the Caucasian female/Asian male have 60% higher chance of divorcing than with the genders switched (wikipedia, citations for accurate sources). It may be that the Asian/Caucasian relationships occur at equal patterns, but lasts more frequently in case of the Asian female/Caucasian male.
+3 for Chris
Reason? Hm, partially related to previous arguments, though Chris's argument for liberal attitude is supported by a Korean girl (Bo-Kyung Byun).
http://thethreewisemonkeys.com/2012/06/26/who-do-you-love-korean-ethnocentrism-international-couples-and-the-dating-dilemma/
This is however less empirically viable than my other arguments.
Regardless: +4 for Chris
A last one before I call it a day, and the most sketchy of the arguments, is recognizing that Western women have become increasingly more narcissistic.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/jul/26/women-wellbeing-unhappiness
This inherent narcissism propelled by my first proof (hypergamy) means that western women are less likely to settle for adequate, and western divorce and domestic violence rates favoring women as initiators +70% of the time, mirror just that. With Asian men being of statistically genetic stature, and more likely to be insecure under differences in self perception between races:
http://www.zeigler-hill.com/uploads/7/7/3/2/7732402/zeigler-hill__wallace_2011.pdf
Well...put two and two together.
+5 Chris. Gameover.
Personally, I don't support interracial marriage or breeding, but my disdain for misinformation and opinion-based debates are far greater. Cheers, Mr. Smith.
Fantastic.
DeleteIf there is one regret I have for this post, it would be my lack of linking to supporting evidence, like you have here. The divorce rate stats are damning to TheKorean's original article's idea that the sole reason for the lesser frequency of Asian male White female relationships is basically solely down to prejudice. As you also mentioned and linked, women are generally attracted to taller men, FACT. If you then acknowledge (which you must because it is also fact) that Western men are usually taller than Asian men, you have a very basic, natural reason for a possible greater appeal of Western men to Asian women over that of Western women to Asian men. If you then deny this or say this is insulting, you blatantly don't have respect for truth. Thank you for pointing all this out so clearly.
I guess in my defense for the lack of linking to evidence, it was that I wasn't trying to produce knock-down arguments, I was just exploring the other reasons, some of which I missed and others have pointed out. The language I used in the post was clearly speculative, but I think if you don't consider all sensible possibilities, the truth of any matter will not be discoverable. It seems all that is needed to offend some people is to search for possible answers.
Finally, as a man who is in an inter-racial marriage himself, I naturally don't agree with your last statement, but importantly I understand that it is your opinion, which you are entitled to have (and I am sure you could give good reasons for). I am not insulted, do not consider you part of the crowd that would shout abuse to me on the streets (which was what was clearly implied of me by linking me to I'm no Picasso's blog posts).
Your honesty and value for the search for truth is what really matters. Too many people think that being offended is what amounts to good debate these days.
After a little discussion with another commenter about the last part of your comment, I think it is worth an invitation to explain why you don't support interracial marriage and breeding. It was certainly a controversial point.
DeleteI am not offended, like I said, but I certainly disagree, so I was wondering if you would like to write about your reasons why in a PM to me at smudger81299@yahoo.co.uk
If you don't want to that is no problem, but I think it would be interesting and if you didn't mind I could post the discussion on my blog, as I am sure you would give a good account of yourself. However, I am aware (and I am sure so are you) that this might open you up to a fair amount of criticism (much like this post has to me) so I would understand if you didn't want to and simply to keep it private. You would of course be anonymous throughout.
Tell me what you think.
As a black person living in Korea I have to admit I agree with this post.
ReplyDeleteYou touched on most of the reasons I coincidentally share with you. One viewpoint you missed out on is - indoctrination.
People in Korea have been indoctrinated/brainwashed/socially engineered to see white skin as the be-all. The women want it and will do anything to have it (a la surgery, creams, cosmetics more surgery/creams/cosmetics mix, trying to 'protect' the skin from sunshine at any cost to avoid any tanning whatsoever, mothers telling calling their daughters ugly for not being milky white, the list goes on.
It's not necessarily a bad thing, it's their cultural mindset and has been for hundreds if not thousands of years.
So when someone with naturally pasty white skin appears to them, it's only natural Koreans feel attraction to such a person. It is what they and their parents were brought up to believe....that white skin IS the most attractive.
Of course there are many more complex reasons one can present to this cluster**** of a discussion, but sometimes the simplest answers give the clearest views.
Yes, the point you mention is another possible factor for sure. Thanks for mentioning it. It is an especially good point because it also shows the ways in which Eastern culture prejudices and indoctrination have a bearing on the issue and not only Western culture prejudices. Both are relevant as are almost all of the other speculations, at least they are worth considering.
DeleteAs a woman (regardless of my race) I find this incredibly degrading. Sounds like a classic case of Charisma Man.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI don't even have to muse you with such intellectual dishonesty. Have this instead. Overseas or not, the racial combo persists.
Deletehttp://www.asian-nation.org/interracial.shtml
I found this through Korea Bridge and read it before I went out, I saw a Caucasian man and literally laughed out loud when I remembered this article describing them as wonderful colorful peacocks haha
ReplyDeleteOP you are out of your mind, listen to what the comments are saying and think about it. On the other hand, I'm No Picasso just found a new reader.
This is exactly why I did another blog related to the criticism I received on this one, to challenge those people coming-up with things I never said. Let's put the peacock analogy in a full quote shall we:
Delete"White men also, tend to vary in aspects of their physical appearance in ways Asian men do not. I am not saying any of this makes White men superior, the simple fact is that Asian women may well be attracted to these differences. White Westerners stand-out in the crowd, like brighter feathers on a peacock. Blonde hair, blue or green eyes, white skin, these could all simply amount to White guys being more desirable for many Asian women (no theory should go unexplored when you are grasping for the truth, I refuse to fold to political correctness on this blog). If other animals can be attracted by shows of colour or simply different physical traits, why not humans?"
I hardly said "wonderful colourful peacock" did I?
The point was that Westerners are unique and a bit different compared to Asian men for Asian women with often flashes of colour in the eyes and hair. Peacocks have been sexually selected because of colour. It is pure speculation that the same thing applies to humans and that shows of colour or whiter skin could be relevant and be attractive to some women. Never said it was true and I definitely didn't describe White guys as "wonderful colourful peacocks".
I'm No Picasso's blog is interesting and from what I've read, very true. I have no issues with her blog at all, only I am still wondering what I specifically wrote that upset her.
Chris Smith just give it up. You get more nonsensical the more you try to 'explain' yourself. Stop and reflect, don't respond, just stop and reflect. Your whole post is some absolute lunacy and you keep coming back for more.
DeleteQuote me directly and explain yourself. Saying "give it up" and "stop and reflect" are examples of debating fallacies to try and gain the moral high ground, usually as the result of desperation. You must address actual points I made and what I actually said. Perhaps you might take me up on my challenge?
DeleteI keep coming back because it's fun, why do you think I wrote another post on the subject? I find debating extremely interesting.
“In Korea, women are still discriminated against in a variety of ways, so much so that Korea was ranked 108th in global gender equality - much to the disbelief of many Korean men who seem to think that, if anything, they are the ones being hard done by (which always makes me laugh).”
ReplyDeleteSouth Korea has a WOMAN PRESIDENT. That report was widely criticised as being skewed and inaccurate. Look around, women WORK in Korea. Your boss is probably a woman.
“and maybe able to escape to another country altogether that treats women better and gives them better opportunities.”
What century do you live in? Is your next article about how the current African slave trade helps the poor people of the dark continet acheive civilization?
“is there as much appeal for a Western woman to be with a Korean man and indeed for the Korean man to be with the Western woman? This seems a little bit more of a problematic relationship”
Are you a Western woman? Are you a Korean man? Anything you say about this matter turns into stereotyping and prejudcied opinions, which is basically your whole article.
“* A Western woman is far less likely to be the model daughter in-law for a Korean family and put-up with all the duties that the average Korean family requires (I have had a few responses to my blogs by Western women who married Korean men stating this very problem).
* Korean men are often more conservative in nature and this allows less freedom for a Western woman, who may well value her independence more than your average Korean woman. This could be frustrating for the woman as well as the man.
* A Western woman may be forced to move into a society that gives her less opportunities and less freedom.
* A Korean man could be more intimidated by a perhaps a more independent and outspoken Western woman.
* A Western woman may well be intimidated by a more conservative Korean man.”
How about we add some more stereotypes: “Asians are great a math” “Black people like to do break and enters and do some car jacking” “Indian people make great telemarketers” “White men are glorious and wonderful like peacocks.”
“I'd advise you to travel to an Asian country and see for yourself or stop being in denial.”
All your readers are in Asia, and they’re rightfully explaning to you your entire post is pure BS.
That’s just the first section, just give it up dude, you’re making an absolute fool out of yourself.. Just stop and reflect, that’s all from me. Have a good day.
Do you really think women's rights are just as good in Korea as in the majority of Western countries? On the point of Park Geun Hye as woman president, you do realise Pakistan had a woman president, Benizir Bhutto, a few years ago and what a haven of women's rights that country is. Perhaps you would like to speak to Malala Yousafzai on her opinion of women's rights in a country that elected a woman president too. Having a woman president does not necessarily correlate to good women's rights.
DeleteThe study I mentioned was particularly damning on Korea, but by almost all other measurements of gender equality from other sources, they are not especially high up the list and not in the same bracket as Western English-speaking countries.
Women work in Korea, but have you ever looked at how their treated at work? Check out this article on the sexual harassment of nurse in Korea:
http://idlewordship.net/2013/02/27/more-than-half-of-korean-nurses-report-being-sexually-harassed-or-assaulted/
I'm afraid it is a fact that White woman/Asian man couples are are more likely to divorce before ten years than Asian woman/white man couples (see the link in my follow-up post). What is wrong with speculating why? As a man with a Korean family myself it is easy to imagine the possible problems some might have. I never claimed these problems were any more than possibilities.
That fact is that all these stereotypes you mention carry more than a hint of truth and it is not wrong to state them as POSSIBILITIES for problems. To throw them out of the argument because they are somewhat stereotypical is a poor way of reasoning.
You finish with the false comfort of consensus, which is a poor argument also. Even if it were true that everyone were against me (which it isn't, I have a few defenders on this post, and of course there is the well-documented bias of negative comments on opinion pieces) that still does not necessarily mean I am wrong. To quote from one of my favourite authors, Christopher Hitchens:
"My own opinion is enough for me, and if you don't like it, you can take a number, get in line and kiss my ass."
Fight me with logic and sensible debate and I will change my mind if you are right. Not one person against my position has come even close to doing this, it has all been straw-men, appeals to authority, moral high-ground fallacies, misdirection, misquoting, appeals to consensus, and more.
While you are standing in line please learn some rules of engagement for sensible debate.
You, sir, are the most stubborn human being I have encountered in recent memory. Not only are your 'arguments' infallible, but you take this incredibly questionable subject matter and turn into this 'serious debate.'
DeleteLook closely at your comments, nobody is debating you. Everyone is commenting on your 1) immature, prejudicial views of marriage and human attraction, 2) never ending and nonsensical rationalization of your immature ideas, 3) your super human level of stubbornness.
The fact that you rationalize stereotypes is the clue. Stereotyping is the tool of the lazy and prejudiced. Every human being on this planet is different and unique.
Things that get reported on the news is because of an aberration. An "Islamic terrorist" is reported to have blown up something because it does not happen every day. People who stereotype and categorize make the assumption that these stereotypes are true for a lot of this group.
Women in Korea are treated just as well as women in other developed countries. I worked in Korea, I have many friends in Korea. Women are managers, employees, dentists, doctors, and engineers. The report you quoted has been proved flawed because it took married home makers into employment statistics among other things.
Don't respond to this with another long winded shadow 'debate' about how you are infallible and everyone else is flawed. You are a father, and you are an imperfect human like everyone else. At least owe to your kid to reflect on why people think you're being immature.
Good day.
If I am all you say I am it should be easy to prove by meeting the requirements of the challenge http://smudgem.blogspot.kr/2013/10/a-challenge-re-my-asianwhite-couples.html?showComment=1381664722093#c6407990947018837006
DeleteIf you can do this you can prove what you say about me is true.
What is important is how women are treated at work and in society, it certainly isn't the worst country in the world when it comes to gender equality, but it certainly isn't anywhere near the best. I suggest you need to do some more research on the issue, as I said to another commenter there are many other measures of gender equality and Korea doesn't do especially well on any of them. I have personally done quite a bit of research into this because my wife and her work colleagues were all mistreated at work (they were all nurses) and given very poor pay and working conditions. You simply sound like you haven't gone into very much depth on the issue, I am sorry to say. It is always a red flag to me when people talk about how women's rights are just as good as in the West, it tells me the person commenting doesn't really know anything about it.
We're all foreigners to Korea and we all have similar experiences with what's happening there, but some of us choose to look at stereotypes and narrow minded ideas and come up with wild conclusions (you) while others of us understand things are a lot more complex.
DeleteI worked in Korea for 5 years (3 years ESL then into a non-ESL position), I dated many Korean women and made friends with many Korean women and men. I've seen and heard the same things you have. And the fact that the white man is the knight in shining armor that saves Korean from the brutal male dominated society that you so scientifically deduced is not only laughably idiot but very offensive to Korea women and Korean people.
You know what? It just occurred to me that I've heard on more than one occasion that Korean women who marry white men are 'failures,' 'they couldn't find a Korean man so they had to marry a foreigner.' You don't discuss this at all, yet I am sure you've heard it too. And it has some backing, it's not common to see A level Korean women with foreigners in Korea.
I could take that generalization and make a 'scientific' article like what you just wrote. And of course people would be offended and I'll be hearing it like you're hearing it now.
You are not infallible, your current argument is complete nonsense, and all I want you to do is think about it and move on. That's all man.
Of course I'm not infallible and as you said there are a few things I left out and others have commented about other factors on here. That is really part of the whole point of me writing a blog, to get information back from others and refine my opinion.
DeleteBut if I really was unjustified in what I said or my post was complete nonsense, I invite you to accept the challenge I posted in the most recent blog.
OP-
ReplyDeleteJust consider the source of many of these readers!
Most of them came to Korea because they had some issues back home.
They do not think like normal people think. So do not respond to them.
I was at a bar this weekend in Daejon and saw some American woman teacher
who was prancing around like she was some top ten super model.
She was overweight, drunk, and in her own mind she was HOT! But what is strange
is the fact that while she was dancing, Korean guys were reinforcing her mental
lacuna- saying she was VERRRY BEYOOOTEFUL. And she was buying into this.
Truth is, if she had been back in her own country everyone would have laughed her off the dance floor. So remember, many of the readers who have taken offense at your post are themselves deficient in the cognitive skills of the educated. So just ignore them, like I ignored cow patty dancing. Write, write, write, and ignore the special people, and for heavens sake, don't listen to their advice telling you to stop writing. Back in the real world you are accepted- and they must have a chip on their shoulder for seeing both your education, and writing ability! Plus you really got a beautiful wife! Count your lucky stars and ignore the things in the gutter!
Cheers. No worries, I will continue to write! They merely encourage me more.
DeleteWow. This is one stupid comment. I am amazed!
DeleteWhat you basically said: most ppl coming to Korea have issues and are abnormal >>>> so much for generalizing. you are so smart! (that's sarcasm. if you didn't understand that)
You observed a drunk woman having fun.
You: How dare such an ugly cow have fun and be in any space where I have to watch her!
Only MY perception of beauty is legitimate. And how dare she have fun.
Of course you also looked into her MIND to see that she thinks she is the most beautiful flower on earth. Because you can read minds.
And best of all your next statement: Christopher Smith's readers are mentally "deficient ".
hahaha...you are a riot.
Cheers,
Sniper
Actually, personally I don't think there is anything to get upset about in your original post. You explore some issues, make some suggestions, some I agree with some I don't, but you don't come across as stating things as being a matter of fact or speaking out of turn. It is more hypothesising.
ReplyDeleteHowever, you are extremely defensive in response to the comments, surprisingly so. The 'prove where I'm wrong' 'quote where I'm wrong' 'you must copy and paste the exact part you disagree with' all over your reply to commenter rather than reflecting on what you wrote and seeing things from the POV of others is a bit amateurish and immature. Sorry.
On the other hand, you allowed someone to comment on your blog that they don't think inter racial breading is right, and not only didn't give them fierce criticism, but was very positive towards them (other than one small note at the end).
If you blog because you want everyone to agree with everything you write you should quit now. That would be a shame though as I enjoyed the original article.
I'm on my phone so please excuse typos etc.
I am not sure how to defend myself without being defensive, but I can imagine I could come across that way. I do love to continue a debate, I am like a dog with a bone on them, it has always been a bit of a hobby of mine.
DeleteI wrote "you must copy and paste" not so much ordering her, but for her to tell me what she didn't agree with. To be honest it was a little frustrating and I still don't know so how can I see from her point of view? I get why she could be upset, but I think it is down to her misconstruing what I wrote rather than anything I really said. She is in or was in a relationship with a Korean man and she took it personally, I get that. It's not my fault she misread it to suit what was already in her mind.
I am a passionate believer in freedom of speech, I never delete comments on this blog except spam. I praised the commenter in question for his good points, which were good, and disagreed with him on that point, but perhaps you are right, maybe I could have examined him a bit more. I don't do outrage for an opinion I'm afraid, and like I said to another commenter on this topic he has never said a bad word to me about my own interracial marriage and I do not know anything about the guy really. I'm not going to judge him too much. As you mention it though, I was thinking of inviting him to debate on my blog why he thinks that and to argue against him, however his opinion will be unpopular and I am unsure as to whether he would agree, he might open himself up to some vitriol.
Defensive maybe, but I find I am unable to be rude or outraged by what anyone writes here. If it is their opinion, they are free to air it here.
You will have to explain why it is amateurish and immature to defend my position, that is debating, that is what you do in debate.
Actually, I blog because I crave disagreement (had you not noticed) and argument and to be proved wrong, I don't want to live in ignorance so if there is a better argument out there for whatever I post about, I will change my mind to it. Just don't think that has happened here.
Thanks for this comment, it was a worthwhile piece of criticism and I take it on board.
Ye, actually amateur and immature were a bit harsh. Unprofessional might have been more suitable. To be perfectly I really like your blog, it's one of the few I can stand to read that talks about life in Korea. Ask a Korean being one I can't digest so well.
DeleteBeing a blogger myself I can understand your response to comments as I've been guilty of exactly the same thing. We blog because we're opinionated, otherwise it would be a boring blog!
But ye I would just say from an outsider looking in try to be a but more reflective or less confrontational, while engaging in debate in the comments.
Hope that helps and I'm looking forward to reading your blog more.
I am certainly opinionated I guess with probably a bit of an ego problem, but like you said I hope that means this blog isn't boring.
DeleteThanks for the constructive criticism, however I am pretty confrontational by nature (not at all in a violent way by the way) so that is gonna be a hard thing to curb, but I'll try my best. Perhaps I am misunderstood as attacking for this when really I just want to debate with people. Yeah I can see your point.
Thanks again.
Actually I get told exactly the same thing. I just want to debate and people say I'm confrontational, same, not at all in a violent way.
DeleteAll the best.
Alex ;-)
Here's a thought regarding the relationship between Koreans and Blacks. Now I'm not much of a conspiracy theorist, but do you notice how you always see things in Korea like "save the children", and there will be a starving African kid with flies in his hair, and covered with dirt. I see ads and banners like this everywhere in Korea, on the web, in the street, everywhere. Could this be a very clever way of making African/black people look bad in the subconscious of Koreans while generally appearing to the public as caring and helpful? I've been thinking about this. Am I crazy here or is there something to this?
ReplyDeleteThis kind of relates to the social engineering post brought up above, and the preservation of and attraction to "whiteness."
DeleteI am inclined to give Korea the benefit of the doubt that they are just trying to raise awareness of poverty in Africa. It stretches my imagination to believe that they would do such a thing. Firstly, because too much attraction to black people does not appear to be a problem Koreans are concerned about, and secondly that method would be in amazingly bad taste. I just can't imagine the subject being talked about even in a committee meeting of the craziest raging xenophobes and nationalists in Korea or indeed in any other country.
DeleteHowever, it might be interesting to question if the effect of such campaigns worldwide have an unintended sub-conscious effect on the attractiveness of black people in people's minds. Not sure how you'd study it, but that might be a viable theory.
Keep writing Chris! Don't mind the harsh comments. Totally agree with your article!
ReplyDeleteCheers. It just encourages me more, don't worry.
DeleteWell, if we're going to explore "all avenues of inquiry," then you might as well consider another explanation, which you do not address:
ReplyDeletethe prestige and status that comes with being a foreigner - especially one who a) speaks English or b) is Caucasian.
I speak as a Korean-American who has had a chance to live in South Korea for a year, so let me document my own experiences. Now, you can usually tell Korean-Americans apart from regular old Koreans because the Korean-Americans will often be tanner and have different hair and clothing styles.
I am not nearly as stylish as Korean guys are, nor do I have their pretty hair, but for whatever reason people look at me and see a native Korean. The only thing that sticks out perhaps is my short hair (which screams "military" in Korea) and height and build (which also makes some people think I'm military).
Anyways, what I have noticed is that if I keep my mouth shut and attend my business, I am generally ignored. However, as soon as I open my mouth and English comes out, everyone within 20-30 yards swivels their heads around and stares, eyes wide. I have seen the expression in girls' eyes go from disinterest to wide-eyed wonder, guys I bump into at bars who would normally want to pick fights suddenly want to be my friend, etc. etc.
Foreigners living in South Korea must come to terms with the role that this privilege plays in their every interaction while in the country. Ask yourselves: would you be paid the same wage that you are paid in South Korea as in the US or elsewhere? Would you be dating a similar caliber of woman back home as you are in South Korea? Are you anywhere near as popular back home socially as you are in South Korea?
These are, naturally, uncomfortable questions, but life is all about facing the uncomfortable questions, isn't it?
I totally agree with what you are putting forward here, but I purposely steered clear of the Western White guy privilege in this post because the point of the post was to explore other explanations other than prejudice, pro-Western and White stuff in in society, etc. TheKorean explained most of them very well in his article, but I thought he could have done with adding some other factors.
DeleteWhat you wrote here is an interesting perspective from Korea though, through the eyes of a Korean American and I thank you for it.
I also entirely agree with your last sentence, perhaps I might devote a whole post to exploring this.
Thanks again.
Yea i agree with boing3887. A good number of westerners here in s. korea are sorta weird, like they won't have a good shot at dating back home.
DeleteI say that the phenomenons of attraction/disinterest mentioned in the article is more of a combination of the "english language prestige" and the illusion that westerners are wealthy (women like $) on one hand and racism and stereotypes from American media on the other hand. Not much of a problem now though; Korean media's getting bigger and views about Korean men are getting a lot better ;)
The fact of the matter is that South Korea is, from top to bottom, a society that is determined to make itself a key cog in the world economy, and you see in the near-desperation with which the country pursues English education (and probably Chinese in the future). English is literally a basic skill if you want to work at a Samsung, LG, or Hyundai - if you walk around Gangnam or Yeouido, a majority of the people you meet there who work at the big company buildings will be more-than-competent in English if not near-fluent. Best of all is American English, though British accents are also cool.
ReplyDeleteI have had numerous subway rides with non-Korean friends in which the whole train was staring at me rather than them (the non-Asian foreigners). After asking my native Korean friends, they said that the people who stare are probably wondering: "How did that Korean guy get such a good American English accent?" (They never seem to assume that I am American-born Korean).
So my experience in South Korea is not quite the same as that of a non-ethnically-Korean foreigner, but the prestige/status that comes with English proficiency is still there and appears/disappears as I open my mouth or keep it closed. Yes, being a foreigner who was not raised in a sexist society helps (Korean girls tell me they like that about me, too), yes being tall and muscular from a Western diet and playing high school sports like football helps, but none of that would matter if the prestige/status surrounding English wasn't there in the first place.
Yes, I could have specifically mentioned the English speaking prestige in the post, but like a few other things I missed it. You are right to point it out as playing quite an important role.
DeleteSorry - my point wasn't that it's just a Western White Guy thing, it's straight up Western. The point of sharing my experience as a Korean-American was that it's a kind of "natural experiment." I keep my mouth shut and I am just a normal Joe (or whatever the equivalent Korean name is), I open my mouth and girls flutter their eyelashes, guys want to high five me and do fist bumps, etc. Culture-wise, I'm as "Western" as it gets, so it's not really a "white guy" thing - though there is white guy privilege and all that.
DeleteIt's an American thing, I suppose, and I tried to put it in macro-sociological/economic perspective.
Also, another thing I have reservations about is that you treat what Korean women told you as a "fact." However, if socio-psychological and medical research (on patient health habits, etc.) can teach us anything, it's that self-reported data reveals *perceptions* much more than they do "reality" (whatever that is).
We also know that memory is a fickle thing and that people modify their recollections to better match their identity, or social pressure, or whatever ("No, I didn't hit my wife in the face, she hit my fist with her mouth" "Did the bad man touch you there?" etc.).
Have any of y'all ever done some act, and people react to it in one way. And then you see someone else do the same act, and they react to it completely differently? People's reactions and recollections are heavily context-dependent. The prestige of "Westernness/Americanness" affects everything - especially and including the things you focus on above, Mr. Smith.
6 foot tall white guy? Wow, he's so tall! What long arms and legs he has! 6 foot tall native Korean? Meh. I have personally had girls tell me this kind of thing - "Wow, your legs are so long, your shoulders are so broad. American guys are really different!"
I know my pants size, and my legs are average length for my height. My shoulders might be considered broad, I don't know, but I also weigh 190 pounds. Girls don't compliment my physical or personal attributes in a vacuum - their knowledge of my "foreignness" as an American-born Korean colors their perceptions of me.
But I must say that your treatment of this topic was a lot more aware than others I've read, so bravo! There's a lot of crap out there by expat bloggers who sit around talking about their experiences in Korea as though they're "above it all."
DeleteI think a lot of what you say is spot on here.
DeleteI wasn't saying that what Korean women tell me is true, just that I was prepared to respect what they said and not explain it away. I realise at least part of it can be explained away by what you said and, you are right, perceptions can be very unreliable, but I thought it was worth addressing the point. Memory too is often unreliable, like you said.
Like I said I was try to steer clear of the prestige element to things, but perhaps I should have given it a specific airing in the case of Korea and I completely agree with all of what you said here, it is surely extremely relevant.
I do find one thing about Korea, though, when it comes to this kind of thing. It is that the praise of all things Western in women can often not go especially deep. While some women that say all these great things about us are genuinely interested in a relationship, I actually don't think many are and usually they worry about all the possible complications of entering into such a relationship.
Thanks for your input, good stuff.
Christopher Smith- one tough cookie- deserves all of our respect after this marathon!
ReplyDeleteWay to go-waiting for your next piece!
Cheers :)
DeleteI think you make some very good points, and I know this post wasn't meant to directly address The Korean's blog post, but I do think you are comparing apples to oranges here. There are very specific Asian-American experiences that are very specific to our lives in America vs. the Korean woman/Foreigner phenomena in Korea- and I don't know if there is any ground for you to take issue with the Korean's post.
ReplyDeleteI know it's apples and oranges, but there are explanations other than only Western prejudice and I think some of the things I discussed here about Korea must also have some relevance in the US. It was just to look at things from more than one angle, that was my point. I didn't even see all the angles as many commenters have posted other ideas on here that are also very likely to be a factor.
DeleteA thought on the white woman vs. asian woman thing and which is more feminine... if you wanted to cast stones, it would be very easy to say (and has been said by many) that curves are more feminine and that the lithe figure of most asian women is more reminiscent of a child than of a woman. But to each his own.
ReplyDeleteI am open to such an opinion and that could be right. Each to his own of course, which is why I wrote arguably. Purely speculative as well, as I have said before, I was just exploring possibilities.
DeleteOhhhh dear...
DeleteWhat is considered "feminine" kinda varies from culture to culture. History classes as well as anthropology and cultural studies or whatever will teach you that any day of the week...
Same goes for what is considered masculine
Good point. Clearly based on opinion this one and all I did was give mine.
DeleteHey, thanks for the insights though... Now I know how you brits think, my bf is an Englishmen as well and I'm chinese. Well this really open my perspective. Thanks mate. Keep writing
ReplyDeleteHow dare you generalise me to all Brits! Just kidding :). Just thought I'd try on the outrage glasses.
DeleteMany thanks, wishing you the best with your bf and cheers for the encouragement.
Hi Chris,
ReplyDeleteI am that Korean American guy who posted very recently on your "RE" of this very same article. And I just learned you are British, not American ( I assumed so, hehe).
I have a few concerns though.
1. You claim you are just making pure speculations of this thing yet based on reading your posts, you seem to have a bit of a "bias". (I am NOT attacking or accusing you, but prove me wrong if I'm wrong)
Yes, Women generally like Taller men. And yes, Western men are on average taller than Asian men. THAT still does NOT make Women are more attracted to Western men than Asian men or that they are naturally inclined toward so. And by the way, Women being more attracted to taller men isn't necessarily fact, but I would call it a high opinion. Humans are complex and attraction isn't some linear A to B equation. There are many factors involved. I'm sure there are "some" Western men think they are more attractive to women than Asian men, just as there are "some" Asian men who think they are more attractive to women than Western men. King of the hill, yea?
2. There is also a certain stereotype (although I could very well be wrong) that Western men who live in East Asian countries or are highly interested in Asian women have a "chip on their shoulder" with Asian men. In other words, things like trash-talking, condescension, insults, racism, etc etc. You know, who's the better man kind of thing? Of course this itself is just a generalization. I'm fairly certain many Western men are not like this at all (and hopefully Asian men too). All in all, this could be just the result of a few morons who troll the internet and make it bad for everybody.
In the end, I do think all men are equal, although that doesn't mean we end up equal. I guess Western men and Asian men do have their pros and cons. I do believe we are both pretty smart people. I don't think either is better than the either, and I don't think anybody can prove otherwise. As for attraction, you can never know who likes who. Why not let the women be the judge?
Cheers :)
Yeah, thanks for another thoughtful comment.
DeleteI get what you are saying and I agree whole-heartedly with what you are saying with number 2. On number one, I have a few things to say.
What a lot of people have misunderstood on this post is that I wasn't trying to say Asian men are less attractice or that Asian women find White men more attractive, simply to say that more Asian women find White men attractive than White women find Asian men. This is not as controversial or silly a statement as it seems because it is well-documented that Asian female/White male couples are more prevalent. Why is this? Well, that is a very complicated issue with more possible explanations than one could write a single blog post about. Much of it is down to Western media bias and prejudice, some is down to how the cultures tend to fit best together, and some of it might be down to appearance. Height appears to be something that really matters, and not just to women, presidential candidates it seems carry a great advantage if they are taller. This article explains some of this: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/fulfillment-any-age/201306/why-women-want-tall-men
Of course no one is better or worse than the other, smarter than the other, more attractive than the other, etc. And many people have varying tastes. The blog was just speculation in response to Ask a Koreans blog whose sole reason for the differences in Asian woman/White man, Asian man/White female couples was prejudice on the Western side. This is a major factor, but I was attempting to show that is was not the only possible factor. In doing so it has been shown that one needs to be very careful in having any opinion on matters of this kind, which I have found quite educational.
Thanks again for another interesting comment.
Thanks for clearing that up. I do understand what you are saying. Unfortunately some people get offended too easily and don't understand the real big picture here. As an Asian guy myself who lived here in the states all my 21 years of life, I believe it comes down to this as to why this is so:
Delete1. Most Asian guys don't show or convey romantic love interest towards Western women on average, or for any other (I'm not sure about other Non-Asian females, however). So many Western women just assume "Oh, he's Asian and he wouldn't be attracted or interested in me, a white girl.
2. Again, vast majority of Asian men (assuming here again) prefer dating AND marrying Asian women because Asian guys find them most attractive. Who's to deny that? Since most Asian men and a huge number of White men find Asian women most attractive ;) hahaha. I like them too but I find all races of women attractive ;)
3. The media may play a huge role and it does influence the general mass. You are a British man living in the UK and I don't know if you know this, but currently in the USA the media is heavily favored toward the Rap/Hip-Hop culture right now and it does influence a lot of the women here. I am not hating on it or against it but I am just speculating here.
This may or may not be relevant, but I heard K-pop is pretty huge now and a lot of girls like it. I am not a HUGE fan of K-pop even though I'm a Korean guy but I do enjoy a couple songs or too. Maybe that will have an influence in the future.
But yea, those are my thoughts....
I totally forgot about the height/size thing you've mentioned. Again, people have varying tastes. I mean, I'm not saying being tall is a bad thing nor am I saying being short is, although if you are a dwarf then you may face some prejudice.
DeleteQuite a few of some of the world's greatest historical figures were small & short men, like Napoleon Bonaparte, Alexander the Great, Augustus Caesar. Likewise, quite a few of the world's greatest historical figures were also very tall men, like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.
Height or size never has and never will give any man more value than the other man.
I do not believe being tall inherently gives you a "great" advantage in the dating world (although it might in the corporate/business world). I know quite a few tall and even handsome men who have trouble getting girls. But I also know some short men who also have troubles. So it comes down to the person, not his height or size or appearance. I've seen short and average-sized men who aren't good-looking get beautiful women, while tall attractive men get only average women or no women. And vice versa. So it goes everywhere :)
Jeez I never talk this much!
I don't think being tall gives a great advantage but many studies show that it does give some advantage that's all. Media bias does play a huge role in it all, I am sure and I think you are right in the other points you made above also, all are strong factors.
DeleteAnyway, thanks for the comments, I am glad to know that I am not offending everyone!
Yes that's my point, that being tall does give some advantage (not great advantage) to some women's eyes.
ReplyDeleteThese discussions are interesting and I do love talking and debating!
There are 50 million more Asian men in China than there are women, that's 50 million generations gone within the next few decades. What makes you think White women are better than Asian women? Maybe appearance wise they are good but eventually when it comes to settling down and leading a highly stable life and raising a sincere and successful family should be every man's duty, sadly because of the destructive cultures we have nobody cares about that anymore and we've become prostitutes to our own desires. There shouldn't be any interracial relationships in the first place,
ReplyDeleteI appreciate your honesty here, I have a few comments.
ReplyDelete"What makes you think White women are better than Asian women?" I don't know if that was directed at me or not, but I don't believe one is better than the other (I did marry an Asian woman as well).
I think you speak a lot of truth when it comes to marrying into your own culture and race because of the greater comfort with it and the lack of problems. After a dialogue with another commenter I discovered that life for mixed-race children can be significantly more challenging because of culture (the person in question argued also that the mix of genes was not good for the children, but I am unconvinced). Parents are also a factor, especially in Asian cultures.
However, you are the second person to say that there shouldn't be interracial marriages on here and I think that goes too far. To me, one should simply recognise the difficulties and issues that might come up and prepare yourself to deal with them. Undoubtedly, the marriage with my wife is a much more complicated one than it would be had I married an Englishwoman. Perhaps a marriage can't be solely about love, but also in my opinion my marriage has enriched my life and if one can find the right perspective, I see no reason why it couldn't enrich the life of a child too.
Finally, people are individuals, raising a family might not be everyone's cup of tea, maybe some don't even want children. While I agree with you that Western culture has got a bit sex-obsessed (I think that is what you hinted at) there are still a great many who select their partners very carefully and don't go around humping everything with a pulse.
I like this post. Reasons: Asian women are the most stunning women on this planet. There are no ugly Asian women, you know? I mean, Asian women are thin and small. OK, some Western guys complain about too skinny Asian ladies but they are beautiful. What else do you need from a girl?
ReplyDeleteI find Asian women attractive, and I married one, but there are plenty of ugly ones out there. Just as there are plenty of beautiful and ugly women of other races too. Less Asian women seem to be fat though and let themselves go, agreed.
DeleteI should also just mention that this goes for men too, that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and appearance isn't everything or I might be swept with comments about how shallow, sexist, and narrow minded I am. My PC contribution to this post.
Thanks for commenting.
Pakistan must be the centre of women's rights and equality then seeing as they had a woman president in Benizir Bhutto. Wait a minute...... hmm maybe a country having a woman president doesn't always tell the whole story, maybe that is just an over-simplistic explanation.
ReplyDeleteI always know when someone doesn't know what they are talking about when they make your argument. It shows a lack of understanding of the country as a whole and a lack of empathy for women in a still obviously patriarchal society. Ask some Korean women what they think of the workplace in Korea. My wife was a nurse in Korea, she was regularly bullied and harassed by doctors and paid a pittance for the work she did, all the while she was expected to be respectful to them. There is even some research on this: http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/tech/2013/02/133_131137.html and you can check out a piece of writing I did on the subject http://www.asiapundits.com/the-sexual-harassment-and-abuse-of-nurses-in-korea/
The nursing profession is just a symptom of the wider problem and I am guessing that if you were immersed in the culture enough, you would understand.
i see a rapid change that has ocured with korean men and western women relationships in the last ten years since the explosion of korean wave. while its true that interracial relationships between white men and asian women vastly outnumber ones between asian men and white women this is not necessarily the case when you look at the younger generation of korea. i actually know more korean men who are in relationships with white women than vice versa. I don't think i could have said that 10 years ago. I attribute this to the growing western female audience of Hallyu and their fascination with korean men as a result. This fetishization of Korean men as a result of hallyu's global popularity is not a new phenomenon. White men have been doing it to women of other races for decades with movies, TV shows, and music. Those who deny this are just delusional idiots who believe themselves to be exceptional enough that they don't believe their taste or preferences have been influenced by the media. The media is powerful, and anybody who denies it is either dumb or benefitting from the status quo. Too many white men in Asia who benefit from this want to separate their relationships with Asian girlfriends from this. Wake up people! Most of us including myself are just part of the herd who are easily manipulated and enticed by what we see and hear. There is a very tiny segment of population that can claim that sort of exceptionalism and most likely you are not it. Hallyu and all the media content that is coming out of SK are just like the Hollywood garbage that has been brainwashing women of color all over the world. This is exactly the reason why so many Asian women have been opening their legs to White men. As a Korean I'm glad that we have become successful at spreading our propaganda like Westerners and brainwashing women into spreading their legs to us.
ReplyDeleteI'll be honest, you could be the only person I have ever heard of who has noticed more Korean men with Western women than Western men with Korean women. However, I am willing to take your observations as true for the sake of argument. When it comes to marriage however, it is a documented fact that there are vastly more Korean women marrying Western men than Korean men marrying Western women and around the world the same pattern is seen with Asian women marrying Western men more than Asian men to Western women. Even TheKorean wouldn't deny this, indeed his article was about explaining this through media influences and prejudice, which leads me onto my next point.
DeleteThere is of course a large media influence, I am not sure anyone would deny this. But there are cultural reasons, I believe, that make things easier for Asian women to have relationships with Western men than Western women with Asian men. The cultural reasons are definitely a factor, but there could also be influences of pure chance down to physical traits, which is of course pure speculation. But factors such as taller men being more attractive is a scientific fact and Asian men have been documented to be shorter than Western men on average. My post was simply to ask the question whether these cultural and physical factors could also play a role in the phenomenon of more Western men having relationships with Asian women than Asian men with Western women, as well as the obvious factors of Western prejudice and media influence. I am sure the media content coming out of SK has helped level the playing field somewhat, but I doubt that these relationships lead to marriage as often (they don't) and I think that maybe down to cultural issues.
Thanks for commenting, even though that last sentence was mildly vulgar ;)
actually i am a 1.5 gen living in america. and the people that i refer to are primarily 2nd gen korean american men with some korean korean men in the mix.
DeleteChristopher:
DeleteYou should examine the 2010 U.S. census. The #1 group that white American females marry is ... 2nd generation Korean men.
The reason people are oblivious to this is that only 20% of the Korean men in the U.S. of marrying age, are 2nd generation or latter.
Overall, 40% of Korean-American males end up married to white American females.
This is interesting for sure, but I think its relevance to this post is not that high. Firstly, I was not really commenting on the US, that was what TheKorean was doing in his original article. From the perspective of living in Korea, there are vastly more White male Korean female relationships than vice versa. In TheKorean's original article, he was talking about Asians generally in the US.
DeleteAlso, it is no real surprise to me that a high proportion of Korean males marry White women in the US, there are lots of White women in the US for a start. It is interesting that Koreans appear the most popular though. I would be interested to know the proportion of Korean-American women who marry White American men.
Bear in mind that the question I was trying to speculate some answers to was why there are more Asian (in my post, Korean) women marrying or having serious relationships with White men than Asian men with White women. I have no doubt that White women marry to Asian men, perhaps in rather high numbers sometimes, but the numbers are not as high as the other way round. The purpose of this post was to explore other possible avenues outside of the 'Western prejudice' explanation (which is undeniable as a major reason), which was the sole explanation in TheKorean's original article.
Many thanks for commenting, though, they are some enlightening stats.
Just found some interesting data pertaining to the US about Asian Americans marrying outside their race: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2012/02/16/the-rise-of-intermarriage/
Delete"About 36% of Asian female newlyweds married outside their race in 2010, compared with just 17% of Asian male newlyweds."
I believe a similar discrepancy can be found in other countries. It is this difference that I was commenting on. It would be interesting to find out specifically about Koreans though.
Excuse me, I live here in Korea for 2 years, but I'm sure that I don't need Korean man. What I have noticed that they are not just socially akward, they are selfish and ugly. No normal Western woman will marry a Korean here. Maybe just a Korean who live abroad. It is really funny how they thing about their self hhahah maybe Korea is develloped from economical point of view, but from social they still live in Medieval period. If even I meet one of them it doesn't mean I'm going to marry him. I'm not going to sacrifice my ideals and freedom.
ReplyDeleteAbout Hallyu: hahaha I don't think I need a man with plastic surgery. On this kind of man is attracted just teenagers. For serios relationship woman needs serious man, not a puppy, like Hallyu stars.
And for all Asian guys here I can say one: divorce rate in Korea is very high and without Western woman. And everybody knows how you are cheaters and how you drink soju. Who need a man who smell soju and not Paco Rabbane?
And the most racist comment award in this article goes to Anon Feb 19 6:23.
DeleteYes they have, but because she is single and no children, and they thoutght that will be much more easy to manipulate her than a man. She is just puppy for some chaeboll owners and other politicians, serving their interest. And if you are versated in politics you should know that many hate her, even those who elected her before.
ReplyDeleteWell theres whole communities for Asian men to date Western/White women, so while its more rare, its definitely out there. I'd encourage any readers feeling down to visit Heyamwf.com, we've had couples get married from the site! come check it out, and its definitely a place for Asian men to feel sexy and empowered :D
ReplyDeleteRoboseyo sounds like the typical know it all American blowhard loser. The kind no one listens to. So he tries to play preachy moral high ground games and sounds like an ass. He and poocasso deserve each other.
ReplyDeleteYour blog is very interesting and when you touch on truths that some people don't like to hear, expect the blowhards and jackasses to blow hot air
Old Roboseyo suffers from unattractive white male issues and these kinds always try to take it out on other white males who are intellectually and physically superior
What a numb nut. Korea will be a better place when it loses an ass like that
Ditto
ReplyDeleteWow, I really hope you are just joke trolling..
ReplyDeleteThanks dear for sharing this interesting article!! I really enjoyed reading your complete article and I am very impressed from your search. Recently I have heard that in film industry also there are some mixed celebrities and some of them are very happy from their marriage. What you think about it?
ReplyDeleteThe point is NOT whether Western women are more outspoken than Korean women. The point IS the cultural difference in the ways they address their minds. There is a movie in which a Japanese wife comes into a gangster husband who was hospitalized due to torture he was subjected to and kisses him as the hooligan husband is still worth of loving. At that moment, she takes out a long samurai sword and quietly stabs him more than 10 times with calm smile. A lot of Asian women get what they want in one way or another, without making loud noises. Also, my husband being an Italian American, I know that Italian woman never talks back to their husband in the public, but at home ( so in reality) she is the head making decisions. See the movie God Father as an example. cheers,
ReplyDeleteWow, what an amazing ignorance. Who are you saying all this? Are you even a woman knowing all this? Race is obviously the last element in lots of women's minds. I would consider the man's job, education, class, and other factors play way way way bigger roles than whether someone is Asian, Black or White. Would any woman reject any man of any race of well educated, neat, sensitive, classy man who know how to take care of themselves??? Would you think any woman care to go with a man of any race who is ignorant, racist, brooish, poor mannered, and downright no sophistication?Amazingly ignorant and Racist post obviously written by Asian American Woman fanticizer. There is a reason why people pursue politically correct statement becuase they are actually correct when you look at the whole picture of human histories as power relations reverse all the time. BTW, I am an Asian American woman. Sorry to offend you, but you deserve it.
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